The hatred of Jews

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Please brother. Can you share scripture where the promise was unconditional?
Let me show you from Scripture that it is indeed unconditional.

NO CONDITIONS WHATSOEVER
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Gen 15:18) Had there been any conditions, God would have said right here "If you do this, this, and this...

You have tried to twist some of the Scriptures to prove your point, but I could add many more to show the above to you. But it would be a sheer waste of time. If you cannot see this in Genesis 15, then you will CHOOSE not to see it anywhere else.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Genesis 17:2 needs to be explained in the light of Genesis 15:18. And a couple of Bible translations have it right.

The word "make" should really be "establish", since the unconditional covenant was already made some time back and God was not changing the terms and conditions. Genesis 17 provides full details about the Abrahamic Covenant. So to claim that now God imposed conditions is to twist the Scriptures.

Berean Standard Bible
I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly.”
NASB 1977
“And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.”
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you greatly.”

Ellicott's Commentary in Bible Hub confirms this and explains it:
(2) I will make my covenant.—In Genesis 15:18 the Heb. word for “make” is cut, and refers to the severing of the victims; here it is “give,” “place,” and implies that it was an act of grace on God’s part (comp. Note on Genesis 9:9). Abram had now waited twenty-five years after leaving Ur-Chasdim, and fourteen or fifteen years since the ratification of the solemn covenant between him and Jehovah (Genesis 15:17); but the time had at length arrived for the fulfilment of the promise, and in token thereof Abram and Sarai were to change their names, and all the males be brought near to God by a solemn sacrament
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
9,948
5,514
113
The beheaded babies isn't a lie. If you read Snopes they have not said it is a lie. They say more information is needed. The rape is definitely not a lie. We saw with our own eyes a woman who was attacked. Now whether the babies were beheaded may take time to come out. But they were murdered. The how of it really doesn't matter, murder is murder.
Had to mark this wrong due to your reliance on the discredited fact-checker, Snopes. It was proven to have Communist bias since the stolen election in 2020. Sad that you're still using it to support war criminals justify their crimes in Israel.[/QUOTE]
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
You have tried to twist some of the Scriptures to prove your point, but I could add many more to show the above to you. But it would be a sheer waste of time. If you cannot see this in Genesis 15, then you will CHOOSE not to see it anywhere else.
Like you choose not to see who I was replying to?

My reply to Thererosealamb was to "please BOTHER" since she said she wouldn't bother. And yet you quoted me saying "Please brother"...I'm pointing out this change to show just how easy it is to change a word of any text to truly twist the original meaning and why scripture especially requires careful study. This is why I always reference passages for anyone to confirm for themselves. Don't believe anything I say. Search the scriptures.


Let me show you from Scripture that it is indeed unconditional.

NO CONDITIONS WHATSOEVER
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Gen 15:18) Had there been any conditions, God would have said right here "If you do this, this, and this...
tim-robinson-i-think-you-should-leave.gif

Gen 12:1-3, 7
- "Abram, go to land. I will bless you and give it to your offspring"
- Abram built an alter (of sacrifice for worship)
- Abram went.


Gen 13:14-15, 18
- "Abram, look, all this land I give you. Now walk the entire area."
- Abram walked
- Abram built another altar


Gen 14:18-20
- Melchizedek, priest of The Almighty, blessed Abram
- Abram gave a tithe to The Almighty through Melchizedek


Gen 15:1-6
- "Abram, you will have an heir from your own body."
- Abram believed in Yah about ^this^, which was credited to him as righteousness because what can he do but believe? There's nothing to do.


Gen 15:7-18
- "Also Abram, I will give you this land."
- "How can I know, Almighty?"
- "Bring me these animals...cut them"
- Abram brought the specific animals and cut them.
- Then The Almighty covenanted with Abram


Gen 17:7-18, 22-27
- "Abram, walk before me blamelessly/perfect."
- "I will give this land to you and your descendants as an everlasting possession."
- "You and all generations of males after you are to circumcise yourselves. as an everlasting covenant."
- "Any male not circumcised has broken the covenant and will be cut off."

- Abraham circumcised Ishmael and all males in his house, on that very day.


Gen 18:17-19
18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”


Gen 21:9-14
- Abraham circumcised Isaac after he was born as he was commanded.
- "Listen to Sarah about sending Ishmael away. I will also make him great because he's your offspring."
- Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away.


Gen 22
- "Abraham, sacrifice your son to me as a burnt offering."
- Abraham proceeded to sacrifice Isaac.
- "Now I KNOW that you fear me! I SWEAR TO MYSELF THAT I will bless you and multiply you."


Question 1: Would The Almighty have fulfilled His promises if Abram didn't do all those things he was told to do?
Question 2: Can man break a covenant with The Almighty? If so, what happens as a result?
Question 3: What does "in order that" mean in Gen 18:17-19?


Faith is not a mental assent. Biblical faith is hearing and obeying. If one doesn't obey the voice of The Almighty one doesn't get the promises.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,726
2,023
113
Had to mark this wrong due to your reliance on the discredited fact-checker, Snopes. It was proven to have Communist bias since the stolen election in 2020. Sad that you're still using it to support war criminals justify their crimes in Israel.
[/QUOTE]


No, I actually go with Snopes because it's liberal. If it smells of anything conservative, you'd say it was a lie, if it comes from a Jewish source, a lie. Snopes is the only thing I can think of that's liberal enough that it wouldn't be seen as biased from lefties. I use it to talk to lefties who trust it. If you have an unbiased source that says that story was a lie, I'll consider it. But they were still murdered. Do you know of a nice way to murder someone?!
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,798
2,258
113
Like you choose not to see who I was replying to?

My reply to Thererosealamb was to "please BOTHER" since she said she wouldn't bother. And yet you quoted me saying "Please brother"...I'm pointing out this change to show just how easy it is to change a word of any text to truly twist the original meaning and why scripture especially requires careful study. This is why I always reference passages for anyone to confirm for themselves. Don't believe anything I say. Search the scriptures.




View attachment 266448

Gen 12:1-3, 7
- "Abram, go to land. I will bless you and give it to your offspring"
- Abram built an alter (of sacrifice for worship)
- Abram went.


Gen 13:14-15, 18
- "Abram, look, all this land I give you. Now walk the entire area."
- Abram walked
- Abram built another altar


Gen 14:18-20
- Melchizedek, priest of The Almighty, blessed Abram
- Abram gave a tithe to The Almighty through Melchizedek


Gen 15:1-6
- "Abram, you will have an heir from your own body."
- Abram believed in Yah about ^this^, which was credited to him as righteousness because what can he do but believe? There's nothing to do.


Gen 15:7-18
- "Also Abram, I will give you this land."
- "How can I know, Almighty?"
- "Bring me these animals...cut them"
- Abram brought the specific animals and cut them.
- Then The Almighty covenanted with Abram


Gen 17:7-18, 22-27
- "Abram, walk before me blamelessly/perfect."
- "I will give this land to you and your descendants as an everlasting possession."
- "You and all generations of males after you are to circumcise yourselves. as an everlasting covenant."
- "Any male not circumcised has broken the covenant and will be cut off."

- Abraham circumcised Ishmael and all males in his house, on that very day.


Gen 18:17-19
18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”


Gen 21:9-14
- Abraham circumcised Isaac after he was born as he was commanded.
- "Listen to Sarah about sending Ishmael away. I will also make him great because he's your offspring."
- Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away.


Gen 22
- "Abraham, sacrifice your son to me as a burnt offering."
- Abraham proceeded to sacrifice Isaac.
- "Now I KNOW that you fear me! I SWEAR TO MYSELF THAT I will bless you and multiply you."


Question 1: Would The Almighty have fulfilled His promises if Abram didn't do all those things he was told to do?
Question 2: Can man break a covenant with The Almighty? If so, what happens as a result?
Question 3: What does "in order that" mean in Gen 18:17-19?


Faith is not a mental assent. Biblical faith is hearing and obeying. If one doesn't obey the voice of The Almighty one doesn't get the promises.
1) The land promise was fulfilled, they occupied the land (Joshua 21 and 23) then God gave even more land to believers in Christ.
2) The great nation promise was fulfilled under Solomon.
3) The seed promise (everlasting) was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

The Bible teaches that the true family of Abraham is not his biological family, "Israel according to the flesh," but those who belong to the messiah, Jews and Gentiles alike. [Galatians 3:28-29] [Romans 9:8].

The "holy land" is no longer an isolated strip on the eastern Mediterranean but the entire world; because of what God did for and through Israel by means of Israel's Messiah the promises to Israel are fulfilled and the doors of the covenant are thrown open.

"All the promises of God find their 'yes' in the messiah" writes Paul, and that includes the land.

The prophets and psalmists agree [Zechariah 9:10] [Psalm 72:8] [Psalm 2:8]. Paul picks up the same theme in [Romans 4:13] stating that the promise to Abraham and his descendants was that the should inherit the world.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,726
2,023
113
:unsure: Salvation without Christ huh? And you metaled this post, @ThereRoseaLamb
No one has said you can have salvation without Christ.



Please bother. Can you share scripture where the promise was unconditional?
I already answered. Read where God made the covenant and how it was done and you will have the answer.



Since you asked, I will.
Thank you, it is greatly appreciated.


So without proof, you rather believe it's true? Well, I can never say you aren't faithful.
You know, I don't have children. I do have a 6 month old nephew. And my mind cannot go there. I honestly don't believe there will be peace in the middle east until Christ returns. Nothing anyone has tried has helped the situation. I don't see peace till His return, sadly.


No *I* said something about military might. My point was that The Almighty isn't going to let man take the glory for leading the people back to the land when He said He would do so. It's supposed to be miraculous to cause the nations to fear Him again (just like the parting of the reed sea did for the nations of ancient Israel).
I don't think we disagree here. I think that military might will be with Christ Himself.




And there doesn't need to be a pre-established commonwealth to gather too. You just plucked that out of thin air.

Well God seems to think so, He said that Israel would forever be a nation before Him.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
1) The land promise was fulfilled, they occupied the land (Joshua 21 and 23) then God gave even more land to believers in Christ.
2) The great nation promise was fulfilled under Solomon.
3) The seed promise (everlasting) was fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

The Bible teaches that the true family of Abraham is not his biological family, "Israel according to the flesh," but those who belong to the messiah, Jews and Gentiles alike. [Galatians 3:28-29] [Romans 9:8].

The "holy land" is no longer an isolated strip on the eastern Mediterranean but the entire world; because of what God did for and through Israel by means of Israel's Messiah the promises to Israel are fulfilled and the doors of the covenant are thrown open.

"All the promises of God find their 'yes' in the messiah" writes Paul, and that includes the land.

The prophets and psalmists agree [Zechariah 9:10] [Psalm 72:8] [Psalm 2:8]. Paul picks up the same theme in [Romans 4:13] stating that the promise to Abraham and his descendants was that the should inherit the world.
Hi HeIsHere,

What Nehemiah is arguing is that the promise made to Abraham was unconditional, so I posted passages showing that there were conditions.

For the related subject you're posting on, I differ slightly in some things. I know we dont hold the same estachological position, so for clarification, I'm an historicist so I believe end time prophecy is fulfilled during the progression of history; certain passages have come true while others have yet to be fulfilled...we're at the very last few by my calculations.

From that POV, are all promises including land fulfilled through Messiah? Absolutely. But that is to say, anyone born anew in Messiah is born into Israel, because He is Israel. He is the gate and believers get claim to all the promises including land through Him.

Indeed, the meek shall inherent the whole earth, yes, but that isn't until after the Messiah has had His "day" to judge the nations, after which heaven comes down to earth (which is massive per Revelation's description).

Heaven isn't coming down to earth during the second coming. During the second coming The Messiah is gathering all that are His to redeem them from the four corners and returning all "israel" (i.e., jew believer and gentile believer) to the land.

Do I believe it's going to be just the strip currently in contest? No. Do I believe it's the whole earth? No. It'll be the land promised that spreads a bit into Africa and Asia. Euphrates to Nile.

That promise has not been fulfilled yet.

I'm interested to discuss this further if you want
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,726
2,023
113
Can't say, not anyone I know and you didn't from me.


Our wires are getting crossed. I mean there doesn't need to be a UN sanctioned "state" recognized prior to The Almighty gathering them back.
I don't know if there will be an UN at that time. But there will be Israel.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,798
2,258
113
Hi HeIsHere,

What Nehemiah is arguing is that the promise made to Abraham was unconditional, so I posted passages showing that there were conditions.

For the related subject you're posting on, I differ slightly in some things. I know we dont hold the same estachological position, so for clarification, I'm an historicist so I believe end time prophecy is fulfilled during the progression of history; certain passages have come true while others have yet to be fulfilled...we're at the very last few by my calculations.

From that POV, are all promises including land fulfilled through Messiah? Absolutely. But that is to say, anyone born anew in Messiah is born into Israel, because He is Israel. He is the gate and believers get claim to all the promises including land through Him.

Indeed, the meek shall inherent the whole earth, yes, but that isn't until after the Messiah has had His "day" to judge the nations, after which heaven comes down to earth (which is massive per Revelation's description).

Heaven isn't coming down to earth during the second coming. During the second coming The Messiah is gathering all that are His to redeem them from the four corners and returning all "israel" (i.e., jew believer and gentile believer) to the land.

Do I believe it's going to be just the strip currently in contest? No. Do I believe it's the whole earth? No. It'll be the land promised that spreads a bit into Africa and Asia. Euphrates to Nile.

That promise has not been fulfilled yet.

I'm interested to discuss this further if you want

I would have to inform myself on the "historicist" position.

One question....

Why would Christ Jesus need to bring the faithful to the promised land at His return, does you position believe He is going to rule from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,798
2,258
113

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
There is so much. :(
The prison riots because they felt it was their right to rape the prisoners in Sde Teiman prisons.
I cannot even follow it too much anymore it is so unjust.
I feel the same way. I try to force myself to keep witnessing it and to spread the word to fight against desensitization because once we're outraged where else is there to go emotionally? ...That's not to say you must do the same. It's important to preserve our sanity too; otherwise, we're no good to anyone.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
9,948
5,514
113
No, I actually go with Snopes because it's liberal. If it smells of anything conservative, you'd say it was a lie, if it comes from a Jewish source, a lie. Snopes is the only thing I can think of that's liberal enough that it wouldn't be seen as biased from lefties. I use it to talk to lefties who trust it. If you have an unbiased source that says that story was a lie, I'll consider it. But they were still murdered. Do you know of a nice way to murder someone?!
Lol. Why is being anti-genocide seen as Leftist? I go with the truth. When I expose Communists, that's for some reason seen as far right. When I argue against genocide by the Rothschild state of Israel, it's seen as Leftist. Communism is a Jewish invention. The state of Israel might be portrayed as right wing, but so were the Nazis. Fascists are really just Communists in drag.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,798
2,258
113
Lol. Why is being anti-genocide seen as Leftist? I go with the truth. When I expose Communists, that's for some reason seen as far right. When I argue against genocide by the Rothschild state of Israel, it's seen as Leftist. Communism is a Jewish invention. The state of Israel might be portrayed as right wing, but so were the Nazis. Fascists are really just Communists in drag.
Just an fyi on what Snopes

While we can confirm killings of innocent civilians in Kfar Aza and other parts of Israel at the hands of Hamas fighters, as of this writing we simply cannot confirm that such deliberate beheadings occurred, given the IDF's unwillingness to address our specific questions and the lack of substantiation from independent news organizations.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

Amazing how people use a non-existent occurrence to justify and rationalize the ongoing genocide.
The Lancet a well respected Journal has stated the toll could be at 186 000 since they do not have the infrastructure to collect the data anymore.
Still looking for prophet Rothschild in scripture... smh!!
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
I would have to inform myself on the "historicist" position.

One question....

Why would Christ Jesus need to bring the faithful to the promised land at His return, does you position believe He is going to rule from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem?
Yes, I believe He will rule over the nations (with a rod of iron; Rev 2:26-28) from Jerusalem for just 1000 years to clean up the earth (i.e., "remove sin from the land in one day"; Zechariah 3) before giving the authority back to The Almighty (1 Cor 15:28) when Almighty finally comes (bringing heaven with Him; Rev 21). I don't think there will be a built temple though. If anything it will be a grand city built but without walls/partitions (Ezekiel 38:11).

Assuming of a moment that Israel hasn't returned to the land; that the people currently there are not the fulfillment of the promise, The Almighty promised to bring the faithful to the promised land.

In Acts 1:6 before He ascended, the apostles asked Messiah if it was time to restore the kingdom of Israel, but He said it was not for them to know the times and seasons. Of course, we know it was the season of spreading the gospel to the Gentiles.

In Zechariah 14:16-17 we read a prophecy of the aftermath of the nations attacking Jerusalem. We know this is some time after the Messiah returns because it mentions "The King" in the chapter.


Zechariah 14:16-17 (NIV)
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.


So here we can glean a few points:

1) There's a distinction made between The Nations (or the people of Earth) and Jerusalem

2) The "King" is in Jerusalem, or at least on the side of Jerusalem, and the unrepentant nations will coexist with King-led Jerusalem for a time.

[

This supports the passage in Daniel 7:11-12, with "beasts" representing the empires/nations that were created before the "son of man" received authority, destroyed the terrible "beast" kingdom, and ruled over those that remained:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.

]

3) There will be a yearly requirement for people from the earth specifically to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast and to worship the King, and if they don't comply they will be punished (i.e. rod of iron; Rev 2:26-28). Why is Jerusalem specifically mentioned as a destination for worship if the king isn't there?


So I believe true Israel (believer Jews and believer Gentiles) will be gathered to Him and He will settle them in the land. The kingdom of heaven is like a fisherman who casts a wide net that gathers many different fish (Matthew 13:47-48)...

- The "Net" is the dispersed of Israel. This is why their punishment (scattering) coincides with the "time of the Gentiles" (and the spreading of the gospel to them; Romans 11).

- The Gentiles who believe and are grafted into the Root, are the "fishes".

- When the full number of Gentiles come in, The fisherman draws in the net (i.e. regathering of remnant natural branches who believe in Messiah with grafted in Gentiles) for the full harvest, bringing in all who are His.

- He returns all to the land by creating multiple partings (like what happened at the Reed Sea), He joins both houses again ending their past feud, He takes care of Edom who will be in the land when He comes.


Isaiah 11:11-16
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.


----

Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology that links biblical prophecies to historical events. Historicist interpretations of the Book of Revelation, also known as the continuous historical view, view the book as a continuous fulfillment of prophecy that begins with Daniel's time, continues through John of Patmos' writing of the book, and ends with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Historicists believe that the book's purpose was to encourage and counsel early Christians, while also extending its prophetic images beyond their time to a final victory.

Historicism was the original ecological position of the reformers before the emergence of Preterism and Futurism.

Here is a graphic outline of my unique position as a Historicist (with passages). Best viewed on a computer.