The same kind of wishful thinking that [desperately] wants the gap theory to be true.
Funny!
The GAP Theory
- Thread starter DavyP
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Funny!
The same kind of wishful thinking that [desperately] wants the gap theory to be true.
Funny!
In the grand scheme brother, does it really matter? It’s a cordial debate. That’s it. I see in one way, and you another. I’m ok with that. No division between brothers in Christ.
Well, for those given to understand it, yeah. I know all of us will understand it when Lord Jesus returns. But for those who do understand, I see it as a gift from God, like that pastor once said to me when I asked him about it that, "no man showed that to me, God showed it to me", and he said it twice to me staring right at me with a stern face.
What you seem to be suggesting is that simple statements in The Bible don't actually mean what is said in simplicity. And I'm not talking about allegory, analogies, and parables that are written in God's Word; those things in all languages. I'm talking about simple statements that are easy to understand, not some Hebrew Gematria Bible Codes type of system.
Have you ever stopped to consider why God used that same "without form, and void" statement in Jeremiah 4:23-28 when speaking of a previous destruction upon this earth by His shaking this earth, a shaking of the earth which did not happen in Noah's day?
Have you considered what Apostle Paul was saying in Romans 8:18-25 that God placed His creation in a state of 'bondage of corruption', when God said in Isaiah 45:18 that He did not... create the earth tohu ("without form")? And Paul spoke that in the sense that the creation knows it was in a better condition before God placed it into 'vanity', because Paul says the creation groans for the future time along with us when the release from bondage will happen (world to come).
It's important at times to take God's Word back to the original manuscripts, like that Hebrew tohu va bohu phrase translated to "without form, and void" in the KJV. I'm not a Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek scholar, but no problem, this is what Bible study tools like a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is for.
I did a blog years ago explaining this, I will post it below
You are correct but you do not explain why, how et al. Everything in the bible is true and it matches science if we know how to interpret what God is saying. Most people here have no idea what God really put forth about creation. They hear DAY and do not realize the word used for day (YOWM) had about 50 meanings, it could mean day, year, month, season, time period et al. The point is, with only 4000 words and no vowels, the Hebrew language used words like YOWM then you had to describe what "time period" you were speaking about, I can prove this with the word yowm, how its used for day, years, year, X Whole, and as a time period in general, and who explains what the Genesis time periods were? God, from His point of view. I astounds me people do not understand the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, and how many people do we lose to hell because they laugh at those who say the universe is only 6000 years old and can not believe anything we say because of that?
MY BLOG: The True Age of this Earth and Universe
I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is only 6000 years old.
Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language today has around 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in Strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.
YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah Himself. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning (The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many, many awards, they mapped the whole universe out with radar. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods Point of View, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.
So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.
The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.
The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His holy word and science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.
On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the land animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago. Then during this same “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X number of years, I never said animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we became immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.
On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.
P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).
This is just plain silly talk. Just take down your blog.
Why would the creation account say that the earth is about 6,000 years old when it is IMPLIED in that account?
"Primitive language"? Hebrew is being used extensively in Israel at the present time.
"Only 4,000 words"? Yet God chose Hebrew to communicate His words and actions.
These are FACTS, when you get to heaven you will see correctly. God also used Numbers like 12, 10 and 7 and that is why you guys do not understand the 144,000 code, you just are not intuitive enough to grasp God's codes, metaphors etc. etc.
Hebrew was the very first language, if you study it properly. God got His points across, you just can not decipher them, I can. Common sense should tell you that light from millions of years away could not be seen by us if the universe was only 6000 years old. Yet when I show you God stated there was DARKNESS on the Face of the Deep, you close your eyes to facts. It is what it is.
So, why did God say he moved on the FACE of the Waters before He said "Let there be Light"? There is a reason.
The same kind of wishful thinking that [desperately] wants the gap theory to be true.
Funny!
You "made a funny" while putting forth a more serious and suggestive remark.
I "made a funny" while putting forth a more serious and suggestive remark.
You can dish it out but you cannot take it?
Is it not a bit silly for you to object to my remark after making the one you did?
Of course - "I have pretty thick skin" - so, I laughed at your remark - which is why I came back with a reply that I considered to be a humorous "match" to your remark.
You were "poking fun at me" - I was "poking fun at you" - that is the way I saw/see it. And, I did not take it too seriously.
If you are going to take part in that kind of interplay - and, especially - if you are the one to initiate it - don't whine about it - "take it in stride" - as being a lighthearted interchange.
~
In the grand scheme it does matter (where truth is concerned) - but, where Christian fellowship is concerned, certainly not so much when compared to many other things.
Cordial? Of course. And, we should all keep it that way. Just remember that 'cordial' doesn't automatically cease if/when the discussion gets a little more serious. Nor should it ever. That is the way we should all be - cordial at all times even if we strongly disagree.
I am not against you (or anyone else) - never have been - just have my opinions like everyone else - "tell it like it is"/"tell it like I see it" sometimes - but, generally speaking, [actually] "pretty laid back" and just want to discuss - not debate - whatever the topic in whatever thread.
D
daisyseesthesun
Guest
If it is true it would prove that the gap theory.
EXCERPT 13 (from Andreas of Caesarea: On the Revelation 12:7~9)23 {And Papias spoke in the following manner in his treatises: The heaven did not endure the Adversary’s earthly intentions because it is impossible for light to commune with darkness.
He fell to earth, here to live. And when humans came here where he was,
he did not permit them to live in natural passions; on the contrary, he led them astray into many evils. But Michael and his legions, who are watchers of the world, were helping humans, as Daniel learned. They gave laws and made the prophets wise. And all this was war against the dragon, who was setting stumbling-blocks for humans. Then their battle extended into the heaven, to the Anointed-One himself. Yet the Anointed-One came, and the law, which was impossible for anyone else, he fulfilled in his body, according to the emissary. He defeated 11 usually translated “former” 12 literally “on” 13 literally “spoke-to” 14 Greek “Judas” 15 literally “choked-off” 16 literally “on” 17 literally “So-much depth were they having from the outside appearance.” 18 literally “bashful-parts” 19 literally “into” 20 meaning not entirely certain, but has been literally translated; other translate “but into an outrage these things alone were forced out” 21 literally “until the today” 22 literally “Papias in-this-manner over saying” 23 This fragment only exists in an Armenian translation of a Greek original 3 sin and condemned the Adversary; and through his death, he spread his righteousness abroad over all. As this occurred, the victory of Michael and his legions, the watchers of humans, became complete, and the dragon could no longer resist because the death of the Anointed-One exposed him to ridicule and threw him to earth. Concerning this, the Anointed-One said, “I was perceiving the Adversary, after he fell as a flash-of-lighting out of the heaven.” (Luke 10:18) In this sense the teacher did not understand his first fall, but the second, which was through the cross; and this did not consist of a spatial fall, as at first, but rather judgment and expectation of a mighty punishment
Exposition of the Sayins of the Lord - Papias (biblicalaudio.com)
EXCERPT 13 (from Andreas of Caesarea: On the Revelation 12:7~9)23 {And Papias spoke in the following manner in his treatises: The heaven did not endure the Adversary’s earthly intentions because it is impossible for light to commune with darkness.
He fell to earth, here to live. And when humans came here where he was,
he did not permit them to live in natural passions; on the contrary, he led them astray into many evils. But Michael and his legions, who are watchers of the world, were helping humans, as Daniel learned. They gave laws and made the prophets wise. And all this was war against the dragon, who was setting stumbling-blocks for humans. Then their battle extended into the heaven, to the Anointed-One himself. Yet the Anointed-One came, and the law, which was impossible for anyone else, he fulfilled in his body, according to the emissary. He defeated 11 usually translated “former” 12 literally “on” 13 literally “spoke-to” 14 Greek “Judas” 15 literally “choked-off” 16 literally “on” 17 literally “So-much depth were they having from the outside appearance.” 18 literally “bashful-parts” 19 literally “into” 20 meaning not entirely certain, but has been literally translated; other translate “but into an outrage these things alone were forced out” 21 literally “until the today” 22 literally “Papias in-this-manner over saying” 23 This fragment only exists in an Armenian translation of a Greek original 3 sin and condemned the Adversary; and through his death, he spread his righteousness abroad over all. As this occurred, the victory of Michael and his legions, the watchers of humans, became complete, and the dragon could no longer resist because the death of the Anointed-One exposed him to ridicule and threw him to earth. Concerning this, the Anointed-One said, “I was perceiving the Adversary, after he fell as a flash-of-lighting out of the heaven.” (Luke 10:18) In this sense the teacher did not understand his first fall, but the second, which was through the cross; and this did not consist of a spatial fall, as at first, but rather judgment and expectation of a mighty punishment
Exposition of the Sayins of the Lord - Papias (biblicalaudio.com)
Gap Theorists will be happy to know that Carl Sagan agrees with you.
....................................
How do you know that light came from millions of years away? Does the Bible teach that? Or is it so-called "science" that taught you that?
.
● Gen 1:5b . . And there was evening and there was morning, a first Day.
There are two primary kinds of Days in the first chapter of Genesis. One is a
creation day and the other is a natural day. It's very important to keep those
two kinds of days distinct and separate in our thinking because they are as
unalike as sand and gravel.
Creation days are a bit problematic because there were no sunrises or
sunsets to be seen on Earth till the fourth day. And-- when you think about
it --a strict chronology of evening and morning defines neither a natural day
nor a calendar day, rather, it defines overnight; viz: darkness (Lev 24:2-4).
In order to obtain a full 24-hour day, we'd have to define creation's Days as
a day and a night rather than an evening and a morning.
In other words: the evenings and mornings relative to creation days aren't
solar events. The terms are merely index flags indicating the beginning and
end of an unspecified period.
Well; thus far Genesis defined Day as a time of light rather than a 24-hour
amalgam of light and dark; plus there was no Sun to cause physical
evenings and mornings till creation's fourth Day so we have to come at this
issue from another angle apart from physical properties.
According to Gen 1:24-31, God created humans and all terra critters on the
sixth Day; which has to include prehistoric creatures because on no other
Day did God create beasts but the sixth.
However; the sciences of geology and paleontology, in combination with
radiometric dating, strongly suggest that dinosaurs preceded humans by
several million years. So then, in my estimation, the Days of creation should
be taken to represent eras rather than 24-hour events. That's not an
unreasonable estimation; for example:
"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were
created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." (Gen 2:4)
The Hebrew word for "day" in that verse is yowm (yome) which is the very
same word for each of the six Days of God's creation labors. Since yowm in
Gen 2:4 refers to a period of time obviously much longer than a 24-hour
calendar day; it defends the suggestion that each of the six Days of creation
were longer than 24 hours apiece too. In other words: yowm is ambiguous
and not all that easy to interpret sometimes.
Anyway; this "day" thing has been a stone in the shoe for just about
everybody who takes Genesis seriously. It's typically assumed that the Days
of creation consisted of twenty-four hours apiece; so Bible readers end up
stumped when trying to figure out how to cope with the 4.5 billion-year age
of the earth, and factor in the various eras, e.g. Triassic, Jurassic, Mesozoic,
Cenozoic, Cretaceous, etc, plus the ice ages and the mass extinction events.
NOTE: Galileo believed that science and religion are allies rather than
enemies-- two different languages telling the same story. He believed that
science and religion complement each other, to wit: science answers
questions that religion doesn't bother to answer, and religion answers
questions that science cannot answer.
For example: theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking understood pretty well
how the cosmos works; but could never scientifically explain why it should
exist at all. Well; in my estimation, the only possible answer to the "why" is
found in intelligent design; which is a religious explanation rather than
scientific. Religion's "why" is satisfactory for people of faith. No doubt most
critical thinkers would prefer something a bit more empirical.
_
● Gen 1:5b . . And there was evening and there was morning, a first Day.
There are two primary kinds of Days in the first chapter of Genesis. One is a
creation day and the other is a natural day. It's very important to keep those
two kinds of days distinct and separate in our thinking because they are as
unalike as sand and gravel.
Creation days are a bit problematic because there were no sunrises or
sunsets to be seen on Earth till the fourth day. And-- when you think about
it --a strict chronology of evening and morning defines neither a natural day
nor a calendar day, rather, it defines overnight; viz: darkness (Lev 24:2-4).
In order to obtain a full 24-hour day, we'd have to define creation's Days as
a day and a night rather than an evening and a morning.
In other words: the evenings and mornings relative to creation days aren't
solar events. The terms are merely index flags indicating the beginning and
end of an unspecified period.
Well; thus far Genesis defined Day as a time of light rather than a 24-hour
amalgam of light and dark; plus there was no Sun to cause physical
evenings and mornings till creation's fourth Day so we have to come at this
issue from another angle apart from physical properties.
According to Gen 1:24-31, God created humans and all terra critters on the
sixth Day; which has to include prehistoric creatures because on no other
Day did God create beasts but the sixth.
However; the sciences of geology and paleontology, in combination with
radiometric dating, strongly suggest that dinosaurs preceded humans by
several million years. So then, in my estimation, the Days of creation should
be taken to represent eras rather than 24-hour events. That's not an
unreasonable estimation; for example:
"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were
created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." (Gen 2:4)
The Hebrew word for "day" in that verse is yowm (yome) which is the very
same word for each of the six Days of God's creation labors. Since yowm in
Gen 2:4 refers to a period of time obviously much longer than a 24-hour
calendar day; it defends the suggestion that each of the six Days of creation
were longer than 24 hours apiece too. In other words: yowm is ambiguous
and not all that easy to interpret sometimes.
Anyway; this "day" thing has been a stone in the shoe for just about
everybody who takes Genesis seriously. It's typically assumed that the Days
of creation consisted of twenty-four hours apiece; so Bible readers end up
stumped when trying to figure out how to cope with the 4.5 billion-year age
of the earth, and factor in the various eras, e.g. Triassic, Jurassic, Mesozoic,
Cenozoic, Cretaceous, etc, plus the ice ages and the mass extinction events.
NOTE: Galileo believed that science and religion are allies rather than
enemies-- two different languages telling the same story. He believed that
science and religion complement each other, to wit: science answers
questions that religion doesn't bother to answer, and religion answers
questions that science cannot answer.
For example: theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking understood pretty well
how the cosmos works; but could never scientifically explain why it should
exist at all. Well; in my estimation, the only possible answer to the "why" is
found in intelligent design; which is a religious explanation rather than
scientific. Religion's "why" is satisfactory for people of faith. No doubt most
critical thinkers would prefer something a bit more empirical.
_
I have to disagree with much of that, simply because you bypassed the meaning of the KJV phrase "without form, and void" per the Hebrew tohu va bohu, which definitely does not mean the universe was in some stage of being created. It instead means per the Hebrew that the already created earth had become in "bondage of corruption" like Apostle Paul taught in Romans 8:18-25. So I would recommend that you not just use a single Bible verse as a jumping off point to revert to man's scientific theories about the creation.
Its called the Laws of Nature sir, God crested them when He created the universe. The problem with guys like you and your thought process, is since God is ETERNAL, He has no reason to SPEED THINGS UP, He lives in all time, so He lived in the end product as soon as He created the universe, which is why he knows our future, so since God is in no hurry, he's patient, He is eternal, why would God need to change the Laws of Nature He created to HURRY UP the Creation? The Speed of Light is a constant.
What irritates me is what God says in Genesis MATCHES what the Scientist ca show us, even though they do not realize it, and thus Science is simply a journey from the UNKOWN to the KNOWN, and God knows everything, so He spoke truth in creation, He showed us how He created everything, but He also knew we would not understand this until the very end when knowledge was increased, and somehow, you would rather stick with words than facts. That was a RADAR PICTURE, do you understand that can not be faked? SMH Radar is Radar, they used to fly planes trusting radar !! Its a REAL PICTURE !! Do you see those 400 million years of DARKNESS? With no stars !! That is what God stated, there was DARKNESS of the Face of the Deep, you could use this to win young deceived souls, yet you would rather follow the untrue 6 days of creation, when it says 6 YOWMS not days in Hebrew. I had the same debate with a guy and to prove to him the word YOWM does not have to mean DAY I did a Hebrew word study on YOWM: see below.
Hi Mike, no worries, I just know you can't be in a discussion when someone's trying to mandate the meaning of words. I like the KJV but I am not bound to any version per se. Allow me to first show what I mean as per how the word is used in various ways, the we can go from there.
#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome}
from an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; TWOT - 852; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) AS A DIVISION OF TIME
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) TIME, PERIOD (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
From an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; a day (as the WARM HOURS), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a SPACE OF TIME defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + ALWAYS, + CHRONICLES, CONTINUALLY (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X FULL, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X REQUIRED, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)
#3117.
יוֹם
yom (398a); a prim. root; day:—
NASB - afternoon*(1), age(8), age*(1), all(1), always*(14), amount*(2), battle(1), birthday*(1), Chronicles*(38), completely*(1), continually*(14), course*(1), daily(22), daily the days(1), day(1115), entire(2), eternity(1), evening*(1), ever in your life*(1), every day(2), fate(1), first(5), forever*(11), forevermore*(1), full(5), full year(1), future*(1), holiday*(3), later*(2), length(1), life(12), life*(1), lifetime(2), lifetime*(1), live(1), long(2), long as i live(1), long*(11), midday*(1), now(5), older*(1), once(2), period(3), perpetually*(2), present(1), recently(1), reigns(1), ripe*(1), short-lived*(1), so long*(1), some time(1), survived*(2), time(45), time*(1), times*(2), today(172), today*(1), usual(1), very old*(1), when(10), when the days(1), whenever(1), while(3), whole(2), year(10), yearly(5), years(13), yesterday*(1).
—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; 2274
CONTINUED.........
Its called the Laws of Nature sir, God crested them when He created the universe. The problem with guys like you and your thought process, is since God is ETERNAL, He has no reason to SPEED THINGS UP, He lives in all time, so He lived in the end product as soon as He created the universe, which is why he knows our future, so since God is in no hurry, he's patient, He is eternal, why would God need to change the Laws of Nature He created to HURRY UP the Creation? The Speed of Light is a constant.
What irritates me is what God says in Genesis MATCHES what the Scientist ca show us, even though they do not realize it, and thus Science is simply a journey from the UNKOWN to the KNOWN, and God knows everything, so He spoke truth in creation, He showed us how He created everything, but He also knew we would not understand this until the very end when knowledge was increased, and somehow, you would rather stick with words than facts. That was a RADAR PICTURE, do you understand that can not be faked? SMH Radar is Radar, they used to fly planes trusting radar !! Its a REAL PICTURE !! Do you see those 400 million years of DARKNESS? With no stars !! That is what God stated, there was DARKNESS of the Face of the Deep, you could use this to win young deceived souls, yet you would rather follow the untrue 6 days of creation, when it says 6 YOWMS not days in Hebrew. I had the same debate with a guy and to prove to him the word YOWM does not have to mean DAY I did a Hebrew word study on YOWM: see below.
Hi Mike, no worries, I just know you can't be in a discussion when someone's trying to mandate the meaning of words. I like the KJV but I am not bound to any version per se. Allow me to first show what I mean as per how the word is used in various ways, the we can go from there.
#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome}
from an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; TWOT - 852; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) AS A DIVISION OF TIME
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) TIME, PERIOD (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
From an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; a day (as the WARM HOURS), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a SPACE OF TIME defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + ALWAYS, + CHRONICLES, CONTINUALLY (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X FULL, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X REQUIRED, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)
#3117.
יוֹם
yom (398a); a prim. root; day:—
NASB - afternoon*(1), age(8), age*(1), all(1), always*(14), amount*(2), battle(1), birthday*(1), Chronicles*(38), completely*(1), continually*(14), course*(1), daily(22), daily the days(1), day(1115), entire(2), eternity(1), evening*(1), ever in your life*(1), every day(2), fate(1), first(5), forever*(11), forevermore*(1), full(5), full year(1), future*(1), holiday*(3), later*(2), length(1), life(12), life*(1), lifetime(2), lifetime*(1), live(1), long(2), long as i live(1), long*(11), midday*(1), now(5), older*(1), once(2), period(3), perpetually*(2), present(1), recently(1), reigns(1), ripe*(1), short-lived*(1), so long*(1), some time(1), survived*(2), time(45), time*(1), times*(2), today(172), today*(1), usual(1), very old*(1), when(10), when the days(1), whenever(1), while(3), whole(2), year(10), yearly(5), years(13), yesterday*(1).
—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; 2274
Some examples where this word us used in a different way BELOW: Notice it's always used as a PERIOD OF TIME of some sort.
2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore(YOWM); and ye shall not fear other gods.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time(YOWM) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(YOWM).
Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year(YOWM).
Exodus 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year(YOWM).
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth(YOWM), seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 40:4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season(YOWM) in ward.
Joshua 24:7 And when they cried unto the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them; and your eyes have seen what I have done in Egypt: and ye dwelt in the wilderness a long season(YOWM).
1 Kings 9:3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually(YOWM).
Genesis 29:14 And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him the space(YOWM) of a month.
Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long(YOWM) as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
Deuteronomy 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore(YOWM), and no man shall save thee.
Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always(YOWM), that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually(YOWM).
Genesis 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full(YOWM) years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
I could go on and on, but I think this shows enough variation and instances which shows us that the Hebrew word YOWM is used for a PERIOD OF TIME of many sorts. Of course it is going to be used for a day more than any other word because God is going to use "SPECIFIC MENTIONS OF DAYS" more than any other period of time.
2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore(YOWM); and ye shall not fear other gods.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time(YOWM) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(YOWM).
Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year(YOWM).
Exodus 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year(YOWM).
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth(YOWM), seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Genesis 40:4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season(YOWM) in ward.
Joshua 24:7 And when they cried unto the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them; and your eyes have seen what I have done in Egypt: and ye dwelt in the wilderness a long season(YOWM).
1 Kings 9:3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually(YOWM).
Genesis 29:14 And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him the space(YOWM) of a month.
Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long(YOWM) as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
Deuteronomy 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore(YOWM), and no man shall save thee.
Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always(YOWM), that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually(YOWM).
Genesis 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full(YOWM) years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
I could go on and on, but I think this shows enough variation and instances which shows us that the Hebrew word YOWM is used for a PERIOD OF TIME of many sorts. Of course it is going to be used for a day more than any other word because God is going to use "SPECIFIC MENTIONS OF DAYS" more than any other period of time.
No, that is not what it means IMHO, I never even mention that in my old blog, but have flushed it out since via debates.
It is obvious to me what God is relaying unto us here, IN THE BEGINING, God gave the commandment for creation to go forth, but there was still DARKNESS of the face of the deep, meaning no Stars had yet formed, thus our Sun was not yet in existence, yet it was a factual statement by Gid because He spoke the universe into creation, thus it was already a foregone conclusion.
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form(VOID means empty, WITHOUT FORM means it is NOT THERE YET) and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep(meaning no Stars had yet formed, because it took 400 million years for God creation to come into the right frame of being for stars to start forming via the Laws of Nature which God Himself created). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
So, what does this mean Because in verse 3 we see God says "Let there be Light" but first He had to move on the "Face of the Waters" but why?
Sunbeams are just that, a straight line beam that illuminates, basically in a straight line, that is why outside of our Bio-dome Atmosphere, it gets MUCH, MUCH DARKER as soon as we leave our atmosphere which ENTRAPS MOISTURE !! So, what that means is God created our earth with an bio-dome atmosphere that entraps moisture, thus the light can be reflected, thus our universe can ne illuminate in full, thus we can grow crops, we can get Vitamin D which without we could not survive. God also gave us a satellite (moon) that controls our weather and gives us our seasons.
God is always correct, there was DARKNESS on the face of the deep, because there was no stars being formed at that point in time, and thats why we have the Evenings first, there was 400 million years of Darkness, by the way, that RADAR PICTURE, is a real picture, its RADAR !!
Sorry to say, but you are in error about that Genesis 1:2 "without form, and void" meaning per the Hebrew tohu va bohu (See OT:8414 and OT:922). So you have not flushed out anything involving that Scripture, so I will not tolerate your fibbing that is clearly in order to deceive the Biblically unlearned here.
Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV
Brethren in Christ:
The actual Hebrew reading of Genesis 1:2 is that the earth had become a waste and a ruin (Hebrew tohu va bohu). That "face of the deep" and the "face of the waters" refers to waters of a flood overspread upon the already created earth that God first created at Genesis 1:1 in the beginning. This is why that Genesis 1:2 verse shows those "waters" already existed upon the earth underneath, and verses 6 thru 9 shows how God moved those waters upon the earth to make the dry land appear, or re-appear in reality. The earth was already there underneath those waters. And that points to an ancient flood prior to the time of Adam and Eve.
Ps 104:5-9
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
There's another reference to that idea of "the deep", the same Hebrew word tehowm used in Genesis 1:2. The idea of those waters standing above the mountains points to a world-wide flood upon an existing earth. If the earth had not yet been created, then why are "mountains" already being mentioned there?
7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
KJV
Oh, so Psalms 104 here is pointing to Noah's flood, above, right?
No, this Psalms 104 Scripture is about God laying the "foundations of the earth". Noah wasn't even thought of yet at this point.
When God laid the foundation of the earth for this PRESENT 2nd world earth age, after He had destroyed that old world when Lucifer rebelled using a flood upon the earth, He then for this present world set those bounds for those waters upon the earth, their going into caverns in the earth, and set boundaries for the oceans and seas. This He did at Genesis 1:9 when He moved waters covering the earth to make dry land appear again.
Ps 104:30
30 Thou sendest forth Thy Spirit, they are created: and Thou renewest the face of the earth.
KJV
The Hebrew for "renewest" above is Hebrew chadash...
OT:2318
chadash (khaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:
KJV - renew, repair.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
That Psalms 104 chapter is a very strong clue that those things are about God's 'renewing' this earth after the flood of waters He did, and with trembling this old earth, to end Lucifer's rebellion in the old world.