The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

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ForestGreenCook said:
Choosing God is a choice that only those who have been born again spiritually will make. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14 will not, and indeed, can not choose spiritual things, thinking them to be foolishness.

Salvation, in your first theory, according to Strong's concordance, means deliverance eternally, and saved, in your second theory means the born again person is delivered from not believing in spiritual things
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1 Corinthians 2:14 has nothing to do with choosing God, it's about being able to recognize and understand spiritual things. Only those with the Holy Spirit are able to do these things.

You are using it with salvation when it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation comes by ""hearing"" the Gospel preached and believing.
 
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Niki7 said:
I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.
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Pure Garbage.

Salvation is BY FAITH, and being drawn by God to Jesus is the source of FAITH in those who are to be Born Again. ROmans 9 goes into great detail about God's process, and his selective mercy concerning humans. There's only ONE "CLASS" of CHristian - they're ALL Saved by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross which cleanses them from all Sin and unrighteousness. anything else is pure religious GARBAGE.
 
Cameron143 said:
You and I differ on the timing of regeneration. I don't really want to rehash the timing of when someone receives life or the Spirit. I was only offering a truth. Behavior has a cause, even the oddest of behaviors. And that cause is rooted in what an individual believes. That's why the gospel is employed in salvation. It is truth, and the truth, specifically the truth concerning salvation, sets one free.
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But we agree, there is a cause.

I am leading a discussion on John 10 tonight after finishing up John 9 last week. And all through John we see the cause and Jesus pleading for people to see.

In chapter 9 we see how God drew a man to himself. And the man slowly repented by taking what he saw and using that to change what he thought of Jesus (first a prophet, then He defended Christ and said he had to be from God. then he confessed Jesus as lord.

Many believed by what they witnessed and many did not

Again in chapter 10. Jesus told them to look with their eyes if they did not believe with their ears. and if they would see the works, they would believe. Many did, but again others did not.

the difference that separated them was whether they believed or not.

Those who saw the truth and continued to reject the truth, as Jesus said, they became more blind.. Those who saw the truth, and was drawn to the truth, through believing had their eyes opened.

This is not a regeneration issue. Everyone in John chapter 9 and ten had a choice. to look and see what Jesus did (the signs) and chose to believe and have their eyes opened, or continue to deny what they saw, and get even more blind.

But the choice was theirs
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
1 Corinthians 2:14 has nothing to do with choosing God, it's about being able to recognize and understand spiritual things. Only those with the Holy Spirit are able to do these things.

You are using it with salvation when it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation comes by ""hearing"" the Gospel preached and believing.
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Peter and Paul show us the proper steps to salvation...

This is AFTER Peter preached to the 3,000 and they HEARD and Believed:

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”


1. hear
2. believe
3. repent
4. receive/sealed with Holy Spirit

Perfect Example:

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

^ these:
1. hear
2. believe
3. repent
4. receive/sealed with Holy Spirit
 
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Everlasting-Grace said:
But we agree, there is a cause.

I am leading a discussion on John 10 tonight after finishing up John 9 last week. And all through John we see the cause and Jesus pleading for people to see.

In chapter 9 we see how God drew a man to himself. And the man slowly repented by taking what he saw and using that to change what he thought of Jesus (first a prophet, then He defended Christ and said he had to be from God. then he confessed Jesus as lord.

Many believed by what they witnessed and many did not

Again in chapter 10. Jesus told them to look with their eyes if they did not believe with their ears. and if they would see the works, they would believe. Many did, but again others did not.

the difference that separated them was whether they believed or not.

Those who saw the truth and continued to reject the truth, as Jesus said, they became more blind.. Those who saw the truth, and was drawn to the truth, through believing had their eyes opened.

This is not a regeneration issue. Everyone in John chapter 9 and ten had a choice. to look and see what Jesus did (the signs) and chose to believe and have their eyes opened, or continue to deny what they saw, and get even more blind.

But the choice was theirs
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Yes, we all choose. But we invariably choose based on what we believe. What we believe about God is impacted by hearing. In Acts 2:37, some heard. They believed and responded in obedience. Others didn't hear, didn't believe, and did not respond in obedience. Either way, what they believed led to their response.
If you change someone's belief, you change their behavior.
 
Cameron143 said:
Yes, we all choose. But we invariably choose based on what we believe.
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I believe this is what i said.

What we believe about God is impacted by hearing. In Acts 2:37, some heard. They believed and responded in obedience. Others didn't hear, didn't believe, and did not respond in obedience. Either way, what they believed led to their response.
If you change someone's belief, you change their behavior.
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I agree here also. Except I disagree that they did not hear. they heard loud and clear. they just did not believe.

Again, John 10 shows this

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

He is telling them to look at his works.. and in those believe.. even if they do not believe what they hear..

He is telling them to make a choice..
 
Bob-Carabbio said:
Pure Garbage.

Salvation is BY FAITH, and being drawn by God to Jesus is the source of FAITH in those who are to be Born Again. ROmans 9 goes into great detail about God's process, and his selective mercy concerning humans. There's only ONE "CLASS" of CHristian - they're ALL Saved by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross which cleanses them from all Sin and unrighteousness. anything else is pure religious GARBAGE.
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sadly there is plenty of religious garbage passing for Christianity

I agree the Bible is very clear that salvation is by faith and that there is only one 'class' of believer
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
I believe this is what i said.


I agree here also. Except I disagree that they did not hear. they heard loud and clear. they just did not believe.

Again, John 10 shows this

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

He is telling them to look at his works.. and in those believe.. even if they do not believe what they hear..

He is telling them to make a choice..
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So you believe the hearing that is produced by the word of God is physical hearing? Then why is the word of God necessary? Can't people already hear? And couldn't everyone there already hear physically? Why does God make the point that they heard?
At any rate, none of this was my original point. I was merely pointing out that choices aren't made indiscriminately. Our actions are the result of our beliefs.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
I believe this is what i said.


I agree here also. Except I disagree that they did not hear. they heard loud and clear. they just did not believe.

Again, John 10 shows this

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

He is telling them to look at his works.. and in those believe.. even if they do not believe what they hear..

He is telling them to make a choice..
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He's not actually calling them to make a choice. He's calling them to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Cameron143 said:
So you believe the hearing that is produced by the word of God is physical hearing? Then why is the word of God necessary? Can't people already hear? And couldn't everyone there already hear physically? Why does God make the point that they heard?
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Do what? Did you read what I wrote?
At any rate, none of this was my original point. I was merely pointing out that choices aren't made indiscriminately. Our actions are the result of our beliefs.
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I agree.

That is where free choice or free will comes from.. which was my point
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
They would have to make a choice to believe, or remain in unbelief.

Not sure why this seems to be a hard concept.
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Jesus doesn't call people to make a choice. He calls them to come to Him. You may see this as a distinction without a difference, but the call is to believe. And the reason for this is because what we believe governs all our actions, including our choices.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.
 
Cameron143 said:
Jesus doesn't call people to make a choice. He calls them to come to Him.
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You will not come to him unless you chose to. Otherwise, You will stay away.

You may see this as a distinction without a difference, but the call is to believe. And the reason for this is because what we believe governs all our actions, including our choices.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.
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We must chose to believe. If you think you do not have an obligation to chose to believe (repent) than I do not know what you are thinking
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
lol

You chose TO BELIEVE

You adding the words THEN is changing the meaning of what really happens.
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Faith is produced by hearing. I heard. I believed. I responded. Had I not heard, I would not have believed, and not responded.

I had the gospel presented to me a myriad of times before I responded in faith. I didn't respond because I didn't believe. I didn't believe not because I didn't physically hear. I understood what was being said. But it didn't profit me because it was not mixed with faith...Hebrews 4:2. Why not? All I need is to physically hear the word of God and choose, right?
That's not what the word of God says. It says I need faith. So hearing that produces faith must be more than simply physical hearing. It must include insight or understanding. It must include a spiritual transaction.

You place the emphasis of salvation upon the action of man and his choice. Man must act in order to be saved. This is not grace.
 
Cameron143 said:
Faith is produced by hearing. I heard. I believed. I responded. Had I not heard, I would not have believed, and not responded.
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You chose to respond

not everyone who hears will believe. Jesus proved that

I had the gospel presented to me a myriad of times before I responded in faith. I didn't respond because I didn't believe. I didn't believe not because I didn't physically hear. I understood what was being said. But it didn't profit me because it was not mixed with faith...Hebrews 4:2. Why not? All I need is to physically hear the word of God and choose, right?
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Nope..I never said this
That's not what the word of God says. It says I need faith. So hearing that produces faith must be more than simply physical hearing. It must include insight or understanding. It must include a spiritual transaction.

You place the emphasis of salvation upon the action of man and his choice. Man must act in order to be saved. This is not grace.
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lol


You still chose to believe.. God did not chose for you. You could have heard like so many others and chose to remain in unbelief.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
You chose to respond

not everyone who hears will believe. Jesus proved that


Nope..I never said this

lol


You still chose to believe.. God did not chose for you. You could have heard like so many others and chose to remain in unbelief.
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We don't choose belief or unbelief. We simply believe something or we don't. Man in his natural estate doesn't believe. Man in a spiritual estate does.
Anyways, I already knew your beliefs on the subject. I was merely attempting to show you that choice is a product of belief.
Blessings.
 
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