The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[ForestGreenCook]

How about this Calvinistic idea? God's has his plan for salvation of all believers that he decided from before creation, while all believers have full responsibility to choose God to be saved. It is a mystery how those two biblical truths work together, but they do.

Choosing God is a choice that only those who have been born again spiritually will make. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14 will not, and indeed, can not choose spiritual things, thinking them to be foolishness.

Salvation, in your first theory, according to Strong's concordance, means deliverance eternally, and saved, in your second theory means the born again person is delivered from not believing in spiritual things

 

[Niki7]

Only in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology is the doctrine of the WIDER MERCY possible. God can save who He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

I keep saying

Something has been taken out of the gospel and is missing, it is there a clear as your nose in the bible. What has been taken out of the gospel by both Calvin and Arminius and before them by Luther and before Luther by Augustine is the MILLENNIUM.

The Millennium IS the Kingdom of God, we are told to go preach [announce] the Kingdom of God. Instead we preach Heaven or hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth we do not preach. Jesus said "all power in heaven and on earth is given unto Me ... go ye therefore and announce the good news to every creature"

Now when we preach Heaven and Hell we are preaching ethereal, mysticism. Nobody knows or can imagine what these might be, real though they are. But everyone can know what Heaven on Earth would be like. That's why we are accused of preaching " pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye"

The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth IS coming, and the kingdom's great King is coming. The Millennium IS coming.

Now the church no doubt is the heavenly part, our destiny and longtime home is certainly in Heaven. THAT'S what is predestined, that's what our election is unto. It is not unto salvation per se but unto the higher calling.

others can still be saved. There is still an earth to gain and there will be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth. And they will be united in Christ.

The meek [sayeth Jesus] shall inherit the earth.

This Gospel will turn the world upside down.

So much to reflect on. We see through a glass darkly and I think it would do us well to remember that.

A new heaven and earth.....all creation currently groans.....we do have an eternal hope in Christ

Thanks for your post

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Choosing God is a choice that only those who have been born again spiritually will make. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14 will not, and indeed, can not choose spiritual things, thinking them to be foolishness.

Salvation, in your first theory, according to Strong's concordance, means deliverance eternally, and saved, in your second theory means the born again person is delivered from not believing in spiritual things

again this just doesn't sound right at all

It leaves so many questions.

Its like throwing a cover over the rest of the word to suit a narrative.

All life is in the book of life until jotted out

As.all life has one life his life

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes I agree with what your saying for most part.

Although one very important aspect is missing.

Is that each individual is given the choice inwardly,.

Scripture proclaims the lord your Gods voice speaks to all.

Directly to the heart, so the word is planted as a seed and a choice, and all knowledge and time is alloted by God to each individual.

But most importantly only certain amount of time is alloted to each individually,.which really very important to dwell on and appreciate the meaning of that.

Because with such an alloted amount of time has to be a time of being elected to be saved to.



So does each person only believe each choice, by surrendering to the choice given


Where as you could say we still have to choose, which really is just another way of saying you must surrender.

I can't see anyone choosing anything with out a choice being given to anyone in the first place.

So why should choosing hold more water to surrendering, it makes no sense, seeing as scripture proclaims God will help you to choose


As it goes none is perfect so there for the choice has to be tried in all I would say.

But ultimatly choosing choice over surrendering to choice seems seems overlooked to me.

Making a choice and surrendering to choice is the same thing. We must harmonize the scriptures, if we are to understand the truth. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and indeed, can not choice anything of a spiritual nature until he has been born again spiritually (Eph 1-5).

 

[Niki7]

Additionally, since we are on the subject of Noah. Did you not notice, that what Noah would do was chosen by God. The way of construction and the materials of the Ark were chosen by God. The time frame to build it in, was chosen by God. The animals that would enter the Ark were both chosen and called by God. The ones that would join Noah in the Ark of safety were chosen by God. Noah did not close the door of the Ark, God did.

How many of these examples does one need before they come to realize, it is all of God.

I don't know about you, but whenever God has instructed me or revealed to me somethig He personally wanted me to do in whatever capacity I happened to be in at the time (I've done a good number of things) I fully expected Him to share the details.

Are you trying to convince yourself here?

It is normal withint the realms of those following God to look for and receive direction. God does not leave us hanging.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Making a choice and surrendering to choice is the same thing. We must harmonize the scriptures, if we are to understand the truth. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and indeed, can not choice anything of a spiritual nature until he has been born again spiritually (Eph 1-5).

You say it's the same thing but you can't even choose without a choice.

The choice must be given to surrender to.

To say you can just choose is just wrong

Every aspect say you must turn

Which is an action of the will given

Is an inward motive of the heart

 

[PennEd]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

I kinda just read the the first paragraph or two, and it seems to me that the 2 types are basically the same.

The elect, and those that choose Jesus. I don’t see a difference.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Making a choice and surrendering to choice is the same thing. We must harmonize the scriptures, if we are to understand the truth. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and indeed, can not choice anything of a spiritual nature until he has been born again spiritually (Eph 1-5).

scripture proclaims that the spiritual man still acts as a natural man.

 

[Niki7]

But I did notice you don't seem to put much merit in the Regenerative work of God. To bad, I guess you don't put much stock in these verses either.

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You really have no clue. This is a fishing post in which you aspire to create an emotional reaction and a denial of what you know nothing about.

This tactic is called a 'loaded question' and you are not alone in the useage of such tactics in this forum.

11. Loaded Question Fallacy
A loaded question phrases a question in such a way that the answer is already supposed. The other person must defend against an accusation couched in a question.

• Example: “When was the last time you committed a crime?”

As the listener, it becomes very difficult to simply deny any possible answer to the loaded question. The other person may have formed their response as a question but it clearly contains an accusation, often without sufficient proof.

 

[Niki7]

I've seen you thumb up Selah's other posts in the past for as long as she has been here. I don't know if you're either another account of hers or a a friend, but I'm not surprised that you are like her. If you're going to act like she hasn't posted a distinction, just like she has, then I'm not going to bother pointing out all the posts here and in the other thread.

It's really weird that both of you think denying the distinction she made won't be seen by other people on here and the other thread. Christians shouldn't try to deceive other people, especially when the evidence of such posts are all here.

in their own little world

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Only in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology is the doctrine of the WIDER MERCY possible. God can save who He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

I keep saying

Something has been taken out of the gospel and is missing, it is there a clear as your nose in the bible. What has been taken out of the gospel by both Calvin and Arminius and before them by Luther and before Luther by Augustine is the MILLENNIUM.

The Millennium IS the Kingdom of God, we are told to go preach [announce] the Kingdom of God. Instead we preach Heaven or hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth we do not preach. Jesus said "all power in heaven and on earth is given unto Me ... go ye therefore and announce the good news to every creature"

Now when we preach Heaven and Hell we are preaching ethereal, mysticism. Nobody knows or can imagine what these might be, real though they are. But everyone can know what Heaven on Earth would be like. That's why we are accused of preaching " pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye"

The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth IS coming, and the kingdom's great King is coming. The Millennium IS coming.

Now the church no doubt is the heavenly part, our destiny and longtime home is certainly in Heaven. THAT'S what is predestined, that's what our election is unto. It is not unto salvation per se but unto the higher calling.

others can still be saved. There is still an earth to gain and there will be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth. And they will be united in Christ.

The meek [sayeth Jesus] shall inherit the earth.

This Gospel will turn the world upside down.

God's elect is the church, which is referred to by many names in the scriptures, such as; The kingdom of God, the little flock, the church in the wilderness, Zion, the kingdom of heaven, the church of Christ, new Jerusalem, the bride of Christ, etc

The early saints, starting with John the baptist, preached repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 3:1-3) Christ, when he was on earth, as a man, set up his kingdom, the church, and has been reigning as the husband and king over it sense that day. Christ's kingdom will be lifted up into heaven at the last day.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You say it's the same thing but you can't even choose without a choice.

The choice must be given to surrender to.

To say you can just choose is just wrong

Every aspect say you must turn

Which is an action of the will given

Is an inward motive of the heart

All of your thoughts in your post are reflecting the person that has already been born again spiritually, and not the natural man that has not been born again.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All of your thoughts in your post are reflecting the person that has already been born again spiritually, and not the natural man that has not been born again.

Noooo


The life, his life in all life accepts the surrender

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The gospel doesn't call for a choice. It calls for its hearers to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. The word of God is necessary as belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So choice is ultimately immaterial. All our choices are made according to what we believe.

Does not calling for us to believe give us by proxy a choice (i can believe and be saved, or not believe and remain lost)

or am I misunderstanding you??

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

‘What??!? Paul was definitely NOT willing. He had an official letter in his pocket giving him permission to persecute and take Christians captive.

so paul did not have a choice when God took his sight and knocked him down?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You don’t understand, @Magenta. You would not come to the Lord if you were not elect.

why do we come to the lord though?

Election is just a term God used to denote those who would be saved.. or be "conformed to his image"

 

[Niki7]

God's elect is the church, which is referred to by many names in the scriptures, such as; The kingdom of God, the little flock, the church in the wilderness, Zion, the kingdom of heaven, the church of Christ, new Jerusalem, the bride of Christ, etc

The early saints, starting with John the baptist, preached repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 3:1-3) Christ, when he was on earth, as a man, set up his kingdom, the church, and has been reigning as the husband and king over it sense that day. Christ's kingdom will be lifted up into heaven at the last day.

As an avowed Calvinist, all your answers will reflect that dogma. You state in your bio that you were saved when Christ died on the cross yet that is nowhere to be found in scripture.

That is a reflection of your belief that God totally dictates who is to be saved and you consider yourself to be one of those.

The op is not about Calvinism nor is it about early saints etc.

But people should know that what you write is strictly from the TULIP position and does not reflect the actual question asked in the OP

I reject Calvinism and the thought that God dictates who is saved and who is sent to hell. I am also not an Arminian so don't go there

 

[Niki7]

All of your thoughts in your post are reflecting the person that has already been born again spiritually, and not the natural man that has not been born again.

All of your thoughts reflect Calvinsim, which is not a biblical doctrine

 

[Cameron143]

Does not calling for us to believe give us by proxy a choice (i can believe and be saved, or not believe and remain lost)

or am I misunderstanding you??

You and I differ on the timing of regeneration. I don't really want to rehash the timing of when someone receives life or the Spirit. I was only offering a truth. Behavior has a cause, even the oddest of behaviors. And that cause is rooted in what an individual believes. That's why the gospel is employed in salvation. It is truth, and the truth, specifically the truth concerning salvation, sets one free.