The book of Job, my favorite book.

[tttallison]

Yes, I would agree that Elihu is acting as a mediator in this way. However, I do not conclude that it is God who appoints Elihu to this position. Instead I would assert that Elihu appoints himself as this mediator.

Question: if God Himself is going to show up and appear to Job, why would Job need Elihu? What does Elihu offer that God Himself is not already going to give Job, and much more besides?

The following is two requests by Job for a person such as Elihu

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.

 

[christophernyc]

And yet despite all of that, God Himself explicitly states at in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Did you notice that?

Also, do you believe Job sinned?

Thanks for the dialogue!

We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.[/QUOTE]

I see. You believe Job sinned. So we know Job's three friends sinned and God requires them to make a sacrifice for their sin. We know that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22). So if Job sinned, where is his sacrifice?

 

[tttallison]

No it is not the same test. The first test involved Job's possessions, and the second test involved Job's flesh.

You ask who won the bet, but which test are you referring to, the first or second?

The bet was would Job curse God. Upon losing his family and possessions, Job worshipped. Satan lost. So Satan doubles down and includes an attack on Job. While Job's faith is tested, God uses the opportunity to reveal Himself much more intimately to Job. And Job still doesn't curse God. Same test, merely extended.

I also asked what Job's sin was specifically. Can you share?[/QUOTE]

The word curse is derived from two Hebrew words. "barak" and "lo" which interpreted means to "bless not". The Hebrew word "barak" Strongs H1288 always means a form of bless, translated bless 302 times out of 330 times. When the Hebrew word "lo" occurs with "barak" it means bless not, and it has been translated to English as curse four times. After the first test Job said, Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed ("barak") be the name of the LORD.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will "barak" "lo" thee to thy face.

We can see from this first test that Job blessed God after the first test. Therefore, we could say Satan was wrong, but after the second test Job did not bless God. We could say that Satan served his purpose.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? In Job 40 God asks Job if his own right hand can save him.

 

[tttallison]

We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.

I see. You believe Job sinned. So we know Job's three friends sinned and God requires them to make a sacrifice for their sin. We know that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22). So if Job sinned, where is his sacrifice?[/QUOTE]

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Slain from the foundation of the earth.)

Job said, Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. (It is apparent from context that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. God said to Job, Will you condemn me that you might be righteous? It is only when we put on Christ, our righteousness that we are saved. It is our wedding garment.

Job exchanged his robe of righteousness for God's wedding garment, Jesus Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

The bet was would Job curse God. Upon losing his family and possessions, Job worshipped. Satan lost. So Satan doubles down and includes an attack on Job. While Job's faith is tested, God uses the opportunity to reveal Himself much more intimately to Job. And Job still doesn't curse God. Same test, merely extended.

I also asked what Job's sin was specifically. Can you share?

The word curse is derived from two Hebrew words. "barak" and "lo" which interpreted means to "bless not". The Hebrew word "barak" Strongs H1288 always means a form of bless, translated bless 302 times out of 330 times. When the Hebrew word "lo" occurs with "barak" it means bless not, and it has been translated to English as curse four times. After the first test Job said, Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed ("barak") be the name of the LORD.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will "barak" "lo" thee to thy face.

We can see from this first test that Job blessed God after the first test. Therefore, we could say Satan was wrong, but after the second test Job did not bless God. We could say that Satan served his purpose.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? In Job 40 God asks Job if his own right hand can save him.





[/QUOTE]
Though He slay me, I will trust Him...13:15....

...God...who hath taken away my judgment...27:2...

Job continues to make much of God.

Job's sin was pride. The test was necessary to expose all that was in his heart.
Job did well until the trial continued past his ability to bear it. This, no doubt, was exacerbated by the judgment of his friends and his desire to be vindicated before them. But in the process of God revealing this to Job, He also reveals Himself to Job in a much greater and fuller way...I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth Thee...42:5.

We get about 80% of our information from what we see, and about 15% through hearing. I don't believe Job actually saw God. I do believe God multiplied to Job knowledge and experience of Himself. At the same time, He made Job even more righteous. And He helped God win the bet.

 

[tttallison]

When studying the book of Job it is important to apply New Testament principles. The following verses are some of those principles.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

These verses should all be familiar to the student of the Word. They apply equal to both the Old and New Testament. No one in the Old Testament ever was saved by their own righteousness. It is not our righteousness, but God’s righteousness that puts us into the family of God.

To understand the book of Job it is imperative that you understand that God is speaking of Job’s own righteousness in chapters one and two, and not God’s righteousness. Applying New Testament principles, Job could only have salvation if he had put on God’s righteousness which we know equates to Jesus Christ.

In chapters 6 thru 31 Job is declaring his own righteousness, and not God’s. God asks Job if Job will condemn God, so that Job might be righteous. Elihu clarifies it even more when he says, Job 35:2 “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?” Job has exalted himself above God, and that is very dangerous ground.

Why did God present Job in the manner that he did to Satan? The answer is that Job was lost because he was depending on his own righteousness to save himself, and God knew that he had to make Job see his situation in a clearer light. God had already presented Job with some scary nightmares, but that hadn’t worked.

Job 7:14 Then You scare me with dreams And terrify me with visions,
Job 40:9 Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Isaiah 53:1b-----And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

(From this verse we are to understand that Jesus is the arm of God, and God has asked Job if he has that arm.)

 

[christophernyc]

We often hear about the "patience" of Job.

Chapter 13, verse 15 shows us the fullness of his faith.

Truth is, Job's patience was not nearly as strong as his faith in God. As I recall, after the first three Chapters, Job's patience had played out, and he began to lament all the suffering and loss he was experiencing. And, unduly, because he believed he did not deserve what was happening to him.

His cries for God to appear and explain to him became so profound that God finally tired of his cries and complaining....... This is revealed in Chapter 38.

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Imagine if God spoke to you this way... My goodness, what a great fear would come upon us. No one wants to fall into the hands of an angry God, huh?

In the end, Job did not sin and remained faithful to God. God blessed him with all he had lost and even more.

IMO, the greatest lesson from Job is "faith."

The reference to the "patience of Job" is directly from Scripture. It's not just some colloquialism, it's from James 5:11. Also, I agree with you still that Job's faith was strong and that he remained faithful to God through his trial.

I don't read this story as Job falling into the hands of an angry God. Where does it say God is angry at Job? We read God is angry at Job's three friends in chapter 42, but why do you think God is angry at Job?

 

[christophernyc]

I see. You believe Job sinned. So we know Job's three friends sinned and God requires them to make a sacrifice for their sin. We know that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22). So if Job sinned, where is his sacrifice?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Slain from the foundation of the earth.)

Job said, Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. (It is apparent from context that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. God said to Job, Will you condemn me that you might be righteous? It is only when we put on Christ, our righteousness that we are saved. It is our wedding garment.

Job exchanged his robe of righteousness for God's wedding garment, Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE]

In the big picture I agree with you, but it appears you are simply pouring theological gravy over this story. Yes, Jesus is ultimately our righteousness, but you must know that before Christ Jesus became a man on earth and died on the Cross that sacrifices were required for sin. They do not replace Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, but they were a way to point to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

But to the point of the story of Job, we know Job offered sacrifices regularly. This was his practice. Then at the end God requires a sacrifice from Job's three friends for their sin. To gloss over the glaring absence of a required sacrifice for Job's "sin" (as you believe) comes across as cheating and is inconsistent with the context of this story.

It is also not apparent that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. Remember, God explicitly states that Job fears God and Job shuns evil. If Job was self-righteous, as you imply, why would God call him blameless? Wouldn't that be sinful? It seems like you are contradicting what God said about Job.

 

[christophernyc]

When studying the book of Job it is important to apply New Testament principles. The following verses are some of those principles.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

These verses should all be familiar to the student of the Word. They apply equal to both the Old and New Testament. No one in the Old Testament ever was saved by their own righteousness. It is not our righteousness, but God’s righteousness that puts us into the family of God.

To understand the book of Job it is imperative that you understand that God is speaking of Job’s own righteousness in chapters one and two, and not God’s righteousness. Applying New Testament principles, Job could only have salvation if he had put on God’s righteousness which we know equates to Jesus Christ.

In chapters 6 thru 31 Job is declaring his own righteousness, and not God’s. God asks Job if Job will condemn God, so that Job might be righteous. Elihu clarifies it even more when he says, Job 35:2 “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?” Job has exalted himself above God, and that is very dangerous ground.

Why did God present Job in the manner that he did to Satan? The answer is that Job was lost because he was depending on his own righteousness to save himself, and God knew that he had to make Job see his situation in a clearer light. God had already presented Job with some scary nightmares, but that hadn’t worked.

Job 7:14 Then You scare me with dreams And terrify me with visions,
Job 40:9 Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Isaiah 53:1b-----And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

(From this verse we are to understand that Jesus is the arm of God, and God has asked Job if he has that arm.)

Yes, anyone reading this story should consider both Old and New Testament. So I don't believe Job is someone who never sinned. Of course he sinned. That should not be in question. Job himself admits this when he says, "If I sin, then Thou [God] markest me, and Thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity." (10:14) Job had a practice of turning to God if he sinned. Job was a sinful man like any of us, but he knew God's forgiveness and would turn to God when he got it wrong.

This is what makes this story so profound. In this case, Job is not suffering because he has done something wrong like he has in the past. God would tell Job when he sinned, but in this story Job is not hearing anything. He actively seeks God and asks what he has done wrong so that it can be dealt with. But that is not what this story is about. This story is about satan claiming that Job only loves Him (God) because of the benefits - and not for the *relationship* itself. However despite his suffering with no clue of why he is suffering, Job desperately wants his *relationship* with God restored. That is what Job cares about the most. Instead of cursing God as satan claims, Job actively seeks God and persistently prays to Him.

Don't you think it's wild to say that Job was "lost" when God Himself points out that he is one of the godliest people on earth at that time?

 

[christophernyc]

Terry

God's words concerning the three friends is often misquoted.

God never said that they said anything wrong, and God never said anything about them in reference to Job.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Job had not said anything right until the 42 chapter. We know this because God had stated in chapter 38:2 that Job was without knowledge. Job had stated what was right, when he made confession to God, and condemned his own righteousness. This was what the three friends had not said. The three friends had condemned Job, and yet had not told him how to be right with God. They didn't know.

We are held to the same contempt as the three friends when we do not witness to the lost. At least the three friends had an excuse, they didn't know.

The book of Job is about a self-righteous man who needed to put on God's righteousness. Like Paul said in Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

It is interesting that Job's friend Eliphaz made a statement in Job 5:13 that is quoted as scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:19. This is the only NT quote of scripture from the book of Job.

Eliphaz also presented the first two beatitudes in an inverted form in Job 5:11.[/QUOTE]

Did you notice that God is comparing Job's words with the words of his three friends? To keep this in context, God is comparing the words of Job in chapters 4 - 31 with the words of the friends in chapters 4 - 31. You have stated elsewhere that God is referring to Job speaking right when he relents at the end chapter 42, but that is totally incongruent in how God framing His statement. He is clearly comparing the words of Job and the words of the friends from chapters 4 - 31.

Also, how can you say Job has not said anything right until chapter 42. Yikes. You are aware that one of the most famous lines in all of Scripture (old and new) is Job saying, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth"? (19:25). Additionally, chapter 28 is the zenith of this entire story and is all about wisdom. The Book of Job is categorized as wisdom literature, and this chapter is attributed to Job.

How can you stand by the claim that Job does not say anything right until chapter 42?

 

[christophernyc]

And yet despite all of that, God Himself explicitly states at in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Did you notice that?

Also, do you believe Job sinned?

Thanks for the dialogue!

We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.[/QUOTE]

As stated in another reply, the context of God saying that Job spoke rightly of Him is being compared to the words of Job's three friends. In context, the comparison are Job's words and the words of his three friends in chapters 4 - 31.

 

[christophernyc]

Circling back about Elihu, here are some questions I posted. Wondering if you have a response?

Question: if God Himself is going to show up and appear to Job, why would Job need Elihu? What does Elihu offer that God Himself is not already going to give Job, and much more besides?

Question: in everything that Elihu says, are you factoring in the fact that he is burning with anger? (It says four times that Elihu is angry.) It's probably part of the reason why he talks so much. Have you ever been counseled by someone who is full of anger? Would you want to? Would you open up and have a conversation with someone burning with anger? And do you notice that most of Elihu's statements to Job are hard accusations? They are full of judgment and criticism. God does not speak like that to Job. Did you notice that God does not act like an accuser with Job like Elihu does? Instead, God asks Job questions. There is grace in asking questions.

 

[tttallison]

The reference to the "patience of Job" is directly from Scripture. It's not just some colloquialism, it's from James 5:11. Also, I agree with you still that Job's faith was strong and that he remained faithful to God through his trial.

I don't read this story as Job falling into the hands of an angry God. Where does it say God is angry at Job? We read God is angry at Job's three friends in chapter 42, but why do you think God is angry at Job?

The reference to the "patience of Job" is directly from Scripture. It's not just some colloquialism, it's from James 5:11. Also, I agree with you still that Job's faith was strong and that he remained faithful to God through his trial.

I don't read this story as Job falling into the hands of an angry God. Where does it say God is angry at Job? We read God is angry at Job's three friends in chapter 42, but why do you think God is angry at Job?

If we apply NT principles then Job's faith has to be in God's righteousness, but we can clearly see that it is not. Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live. (Job's heart did reproach him to the point of Job calling himself vile.)


God doesn't say he is angry at Job, but Job has. Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

 

[tttallison]

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Slain from the foundation of the earth.)

Job said, Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. (It is apparent from context that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. God said to Job, Will you condemn me that you might be righteous? It is only when we put on Christ, our righteousness that we are saved. It is our wedding garment.

Job exchanged his robe of righteousness for God's wedding garment, Jesus Christ.

In the big picture I agree with you, but it appears you are simply pouring theological gravy over this story. Yes, Jesus is ultimately our righteousness, but you must know that before Christ Jesus became a man on earth and died on the Cross that sacrifices were required for sin. They do not replace Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, but they were a way to point to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

But to the point of the story of Job, we know Job offered sacrifices regularly. This was his practice. Then at the end God requires a sacrifice from Job's three friends for their sin. To gloss over the glaring absence of a required sacrifice for Job's "sin" (as you believe) comes across as cheating and is inconsistent with the context of this story.

It is also not apparent that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. Remember, God explicitly states that Job fears God and Job shuns evil. If Job was self-righteous, as you imply, why would God call him blameless? Wouldn't that be sinful? It seems like you are contradicting what God said about Job.[/QUOTE]

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Job did not have a broken spirit or a contrite heart. He was striving with his maker, and in Isaiah 45 it says woe to him.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Job said, I will maintain my own ways before him.
Job 13:15b---; but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Everybody said it was Job's righteous.

The three friends, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Elihu, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
God, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Clearly, they are all referring to Job's righteousness and not God's.

Clearly Job's sacrifice for his own sons did not work.
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

 

[christophernyc]

If we apply NT principles then Job's faith has to be in God's righteousness, but we can clearly see that it is not. Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live. (Job's heart did reproach him to the point of Job calling himself vile.)


God doesn't say he is angry at Job, but Job has. Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

We know from the outset of the story that Job has not committed any sin to incur his suffering. That is the entire premise of the story. God knows it, satan knows it, Job knows it, and every reader knows it. So Job is correct when he claims he has done nothing wrong to cause his current suffering. Job's three friends make this assertion, but as we find out, the three friends were wrong. Actually, Job would have sinned if he had said he had done something wrong to incur his suffering because then he would be telling a lie.

How is Job's right standing with God separate from God's righteousness? He regularly practiced what God required of everyone during those times, which was to offer a sacrifice for sin. People who did it were obeying God. It's unclear why you want to separate Job somehow. Do you think everyone else who offered a sacrifice in the OT were being self-righteous too? And how would you distinguish them from Job?

So if you were writing an epistle like James, and you were referencing Job, I am guessing you might write something like, "Consider the self-righteous pride of Job. Consider how highly he thought of himself and how God had to allow him to suffer so bad that it nearly kills him." Would that be accurate?

 

[christophernyc]

In the big picture I agree with you, but it appears you are simply pouring theological gravy over this story. Yes, Jesus is ultimately our righteousness, but you must know that before Christ Jesus became a man on earth and died on the Cross that sacrifices were required for sin. They do not replace Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, but they were a way to point to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

But to the point of the story of Job, we know Job offered sacrifices regularly. This was his practice. Then at the end God requires a sacrifice from Job's three friends for their sin. To gloss over the glaring absence of a required sacrifice for Job's "sin" (as you believe) comes across as cheating and is inconsistent with the context of this story.

It is also not apparent that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. Remember, God explicitly states that Job fears God and Job shuns evil. If Job was self-righteous, as you imply, why would God call him blameless? Wouldn't that be sinful? It seems like you are contradicting what God said about Job.

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Job did not have a broken spirit or a contrite heart. He was striving with his maker, and in Isaiah 45 it says woe to him.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Job said, I will maintain my own ways before him.
Job 13:15b---; but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Everybody said it was Job's righteous.

The three friends, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Elihu, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
God, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Clearly, they are all referring to Job's righteousness and not God's.

Clearly Job's sacrifice for his own sons did not work.
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.[/QUOTE]

I do not disagree with the other Scripture references you provided, nor would I want to. Still, I did not see any response to the question: if you're accusing Job of self-righteousness, why does God call him blameless (twice)? How does that comport?

 

[christophernyc]

I have to ask: why can't you accept the premise that when this story begins, there is no particular sin in Job's life? Why do you have the need to accuse him of something like pride and self-righteousness? This insistence is akin to how Job's three friends view him, too. Did you notice that? Why can't it be that Job is simply innocent here as God says?

 

[tttallison]

Yes, anyone reading this story should consider both Old and New Testament. So I don't believe Job is someone who never sinned. Of course he sinned. That should not be in question. Job himself admits this when he says, "If I sin, then Thou [God] markest me, and Thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity." (10:14) Job had a practice of turning to God if he sinned. Job was a sinful man like any of us, but he knew God's forgiveness and would turn to God when he got it wrong.

This is what makes this story so profound. In this case, Job is not suffering because he has done something wrong like he has in the past. God would tell Job when he sinned, but in this story Job is not hearing anything. He actively seeks God and asks what he has done wrong so that it can be dealt with. But that is not what this story is about. This story is about satan claiming that Job only loves Him (God) because of the benefits - and not for the *relationship* itself. However despite his suffering with no clue of why he is suffering, Job desperately wants his *relationship* with God restored. That is what Job cares about the most. Instead of cursing God as satan claims, Job actively seeks God and persistently prays to Him.

Don't you think it's wild to say that Job was "lost" when God Himself points out that he is one of the godliest people on earth at that time?

Can you not see how Job parallels Israel? Most Orthodox Jews have been required to quote scripture from a youth up. They can spew theological gravy better than anyone, yet they are not saved. Jesus called them whited sepulchers.

God did not say Job was one of the most godliest people. God said Job was "tam". The first time it is translated it refers to Jacob, the brother of Esau, and is translated plain. God said Job was "yasar", which means to do right. And God said Job "yare" God, which means to fear God. And God said Job "sur" evil, which means to avoid it. You could say Job was the most moral person on earth. But that doesn't make him a saved person.

What does the bible say about a moral person? Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Job turned from his righteousness when he didn't bless God.

 

[tttallison]

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Job did not have a broken spirit or a contrite heart. He was striving with his maker, and in Isaiah 45 it says woe to him.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Job said, I will maintain my own ways before him.
Job 13:15b---; but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Everybody said it was Job's righteous.

The three friends, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Elihu, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
God, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Clearly, they are all referring to Job's righteousness and not God's.

Clearly Job's sacrifice for his own sons did not work.
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

I do not disagree with the other Scripture references you provided, nor would I want to. Still, I did not see any response to the question: if you're accusing Job of self-righteousness, why does God call him blameless (twice)? How does that comport?[/QUOTE]

The same way Paul declared himself blameless while he was killing Christians. Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Paul did it in ignorance.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Terry

God's words concerning the three friends is often misquoted.

God never said that they said anything wrong, and God never said anything about them in reference to Job.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Job had not said anything right until the 42 chapter. We know this because God had stated in chapter 38:2 that Job was without knowledge. Job had stated what was right, when he made confession to God, and condemned his own righteousness. This was what the three friends had not said. The three friends had condemned Job, and yet had not told him how to be right with God. They didn't know.

We are held to the same contempt as the three friends when we do not witness to the lost. At least the three friends had an excuse, they didn't know.

The book of Job is about a self-righteous man who needed to put on God's righteousness. Like Paul said in Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

It is interesting that Job's friend Eliphaz made a statement in Job 5:13 that is quoted as scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:19. This is the only NT quote of scripture from the book of Job.

Eliphaz also presented the first two beatitudes in an inverted form in Job 5:11.[/QUOTE]

No, Job has true faith in God (Job 1:1; 2:9,10), but he and his friends had the wrong ideas about God.

Let me explain. They thought that great tragedy was caused by a person's great sin done in the past.

His friends blamed Job for his tragedies, while Job knew that he had been faithful and had committed no GREAT sin. Such was Job's dilemma and the the reason he questioned God until God put him in his place.

God faulted Job's friends more because they judged and condemned Job for what they thought was his GREAT sins that had brought on his suffering.