"The Anatomy...

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Jocund said:
I've never heard of the concept that Israel as a nation was elect. Is there a passage for that?

Spiritual Israel in Christ is elect. The house of Israel in Christ is elect. I can't find a single passage that states "the nation of Israel" would be elect.
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There are so many verses that illustrate God's divine choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

To be chosen by God is the same as being God's elect.

Did God choose the nation of Israel or not?
 
soberxp said:
You asked about chosen, not about saved.
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Rom 11:28 isn't talking about all people of Israel. The topic of Rom 11:28 is from Rom 11:26, which is talking about All Israel: a subset of the people of Israel. The saved or elected are a subset, and that subset only includes people that are or will be in Christ.

There are people that are called but do not answer. That's different than election.

soberxp said:
In addition, the Bible says obscure things about the salvation of the Israeli family. On the one hand, there are a few, and on the other hand, God can save the whole.
I can only think that God has two kinds of preparations, which conform to God's habits, and God always leaves a surplus.
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There are certainly Israelites that are saved (Paul uses himself as an example). But it could not be the case that all people of Israel are saved or touching election because it would contradict Rom 9:27.
 
Inquisitor said:
There are so many verses that illustrate God's divine choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

To be chosen by God is the same as being God's elect.

Did God choose the nation of Israel or not?
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Israel as a spiritual people was chosen in the OT, but nowhere does this say that the "nation of Israel" is chosen.
 
VARob said:
Does this include committed Calvinists?
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Of course it does.

Afterall, are there not three point, four point, and five point Calvinists?

Surely these three groups of Calvinists cannot all be dividing the scripture correctly?

A Calvinist cannot know whether, in the end, they are saved. So there cannot be any security found in Calvinism.

Calvinism is a theology, an interpretation, a religious product.

One can only be saved by believing in Jesus.
 
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Jocund said:
Israel as a spiritual people was chosen in the OT, but nowhere does this say that the "nation of Israel" is chosen.
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Are you saying that the nation of Israel was not chosen?

The nation of Israel was not predestined to be the chosen nation among all the nations?

I don't know what you have been reading but the Old Testament proclaims the nation of Israel above all nations.

Which nation on earth was Jesus specifically sent to?

What nationality did Jesus hold?

Who did Paul preach to first?

What nationality was the first church?
 
Inquisitor said:
There are so many verses that illustrate God's divine choice.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

To be chosen by God is the same as being God's elect.

Did God choose the nation of Israel or not?
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1 Chronicles 16:13
You descendants of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!

2 Chronicles 6:6
but I have chosen Jerusalem so that My name might be there...

Psalm 105:6
You descendants of Abraham, His servant, You sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!
 
Jocund said:
Rom 11:28 isn't talking about all people of Israel. The topic of Rom 11:28 is from Rom 11:26, which is talking about All Israel: a subset of the people of Israel. The saved or elected are a subset, and that subset only includes people that are or will be in Christ.

There are people that are called but do not answer. That's different than election.



There are certainly Israelites that are saved (Paul uses himself as an example). But it could not be the case that all people of Israel are saved or touching election because it would contradict Rom 9:27.
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If someone strictly says that few people can be saved.
Another person from emotionally and says all can be saved.
Can't you understand?
They all know part of it, no one really knows how many people can be saved, few or all.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
soberxp said:
If someone strictly says that few people can be saved.
Another person from emotionally and says all can be saved.
Can't you understand?
They all know part of it, no one really knows how many people can be saved, few or all.
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It's obvious that not all will be saved.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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The gift of God is salvation by faith, not the faith to believe.
 
VARob said:
It's obvious that not all will be saved.


The gift of God is salvation by faith, not the faith to believe.
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I don't know what kind of people can't be saved. Theoretically, they can be saved as long as they believe in Jesus Christ.
 
VARob said:
Evil unrepentant people.


Many people do not believe in Jesus Christ.
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Apart from the Bible, I think everyone lives to live, but they still don't understand the meaning of real life.
The reason is that their cognition of the world limits their behavior.

Will you be sad for them?
 
soberxp said:
Apart from the Bible, I think everyone lives to live, but they still don't understand the meaning of real life.
The reason is that their cognition of the world limits their behavior.

Will you be sad for them?
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For some, sure! For others, not-so-much.
 
Inquisitor said:
1 Chronicles 16:13
You descendants of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!
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"Remember his marvellous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones." - 1 Chron 16:13 KJV

The lineage of Jacob is a subset of the lineage of Israel. It follows that "chosen ones" is then also a subset of lineage of Jacob in this case. This passage by itself is not stating that all descendants of Jacob are chosen.

Inquisitor said:
Are you saying that the nation of Israel was not chosen?
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I'm saying that I see no scriptural evidence that the "nation of Israel" is chosen. There would have certainly been individual people within the nation(s) of Israel that were chosen. The first apostles (except Judas) would have been within that chosen/elect/saved subset.

Inquisitor said:
The nation of Israel was not predestined to be the chosen nation among all the nations?
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As a nation? No. Called but not chosen.

Look:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." - Exo 19:5-6 KJV

Holy basically means the same thing as elect/chosen, etc. as far as I can tell. You'll notice the "if" in Exodus 19. If this, then that. We see in the NT that no one but Christ Himself fulfilled the Law and obeyed the covenant perfectly. This tells us that this "if" in Exodus 19 was not fulfilled prior to Christ and therefore Israel never became a Holy Nation by the condition in this passage.

But, there is a Holy Nation described in scripture and that is the nation in Christ.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" - 1 Peter 2:9 KJV

Inquisitor said:
I don't know what you have been reading but the Old Testament proclaims the nation of Israel above all nations.
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Israel the nation? Where?

Inquisitor said:
Which nation on earth was Jesus specifically sent to?
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Was the tree that Christ cursed "chosen" because He happened by it? Of course not. Chosen/elect has a specific meaning more than just any kind of interaction.

Inquisitor said:
What nationality did Jesus hold?
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If a elect person resided in Gomorrah as a citizen of that nation, that person's election or status does not make the whole nation 'elect' or 'chosen'
 
soberxp said:
If someone strictly says that few people can be saved.
Another person from emotionally and says all can be saved.
Can't you understand?
They all know part of it, no one really knows how many people can be saved, few or all.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Click to expand...

The statements "All Israel shall be saved" and "Only a remnant of Israel will be saved" are both true statement, they are just talking about two different things.

One is talking about "Israel" which is the Spiritual Body that contains people and the other is talking about "of Israel" means "from Israel" as a reference to genetic progeny. The "Spiritual Israel" is at least a subset of genetic progeny and not wholly inclusive of all genetic progeny.

Basically, being born as a genetic descendant of Israel does not guarantee anything (statistically, it places the odds against you), But there will still be a percentage of Israelites called to Christ (the remnant that is saved). "All Israel" is not talking about "all of Israel".
 
soberxp said:
I don't know what kind of people can't be saved. Theoretically, they can be saved as long as they believe in Jesus Christ.
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The parable of the wheat and tares tells us that there are those incapable of believing in Christ. The tares are destined not to be saved. The implicit warning in the parable is that it is difficult to tell the difference between the saved and unsaved by outward appearance alone.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
Do you believe that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given in the new birth?
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I think I know where you're going, FGC... You're going to quote 1 Cor 3:14, and say that a "natural" person (implying a person without the spirit) cannot understand spiritual things, therefore they must have the Spirit before they can hear and believe spiritual things. In 2 Cor 3:14, the word for "natural" is psuchikos, and it means "soulish." A soulish man can choose change his focus and decide to seek God.
 
Jocund said:
"Remember his marvellous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones." - 1 Chron 16:13 KJV

The lineage of Jacob is a subset of the lineage of Israel. It follows that "chosen ones" is then also a subset of lineage of Jacob in this case. This passage by itself is not stating that all descendants of Jacob are chosen.
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Jacob's name was changed to Israel by God.
'...ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.'
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The text states that the children of Jacob are the chosen one's. Which is identical to saying. The text states that the children of ISRAEL are the chosen one's.

What you said is incorrect.
I'm saying that I see no scriptural evidence that the "nation of Israel" is chosen. There would have certainly been individual people within the nation(s) of Israel that were chosen. The first apostles (except Judas) would have been within that chosen/elect/saved subset.
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See earlier comment.
As a nation? No. Called but not chosen.
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The text states the children of Jacob/Israel are CHOSEN.
 
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