The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Truth7t7]

Paul cannot be more clear that the day does not come upon us, the Church, like a thief in the night, because we are prepared.

You fail to comprehend that it does come as a thief in the night upon those who do not believe in the the rapture. Why? Because those who do not believe in the rapture are not earnestly waiting for the soon return of our Lord Jesus Christ as He has commanded and warned time and time and time again.

I clearly responded with my explanation on how the "Thief" applied to supposed unsaved Jews on earth?

It went right over your head, and you come right back in your application upon myself, big smiles!

Do you have a driver's liscense to operate a vehicle?

 

[cv5]

The 144,000 are sealed and "Added To The Church" present on earth during the 3.5 year tribulation, to preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.

144,000 what. Christians? Prove it if you can.

 

[cv5]

I clearly responded with my explanation on how the "Thief" applied to supposed unsaved Jews on earth?

It went right over your head, and you come right back in your application upon myself, big smiles!

Do you have a driver's liscense to operate a vehicle?

Unsaved Jews? Categorically? Not anyone else? That's what you come up with? There is not one single solitary scholarly commentator in the history of the world that has made that conclusion.

 

[Truth7t7]

Tragically you fall into the same camp as KJV1611.
Y'all better pay attention buddy. You've got one shot at this. What had better concern you is that those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit receive the truth and they understand it immediately.

You on the other hand rejected immediately. A cause for deep concern.

Your correct I reject a pre-trib rapture of the church, and a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, neither one is found in the Scripture

A Big Pinocchio Fairy Tale!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe it will be Moses not Enoch, for Enoch is a picture of the raptured saint who never faces death but is caught up.

Hi John!

My problem with Moses being one of the witnesses is that, Moses died. If someone wants to claim that he was resurrected, it would mean that Moses would have died resurrected, died again and resurrected again. My choice would be Enoch and Elijah, bot of whom never died a physical death.

 

[cv5]

What you said above, is one of the major reasons why you and others don't have any understanding. All you do is read a book by a false teaching and then adopt his teachings and continue to spread these false teachings.

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events with different purposes.

Regarding the gathering of the church, the Lord will descend into the atmosphere and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet will say "Come up here!" Where the dead in Christ will rise first. Then those in Christ who are still alive will be changed and caught up with those who just resurrected. At that point the entire church will be gathered in the air to meet the Lord, where He will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

In opposition, at the second coming, the Lord will descend from heaven to the earth with the church following him, where He will have the beast and the false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). After that, a mighty angel having the key to the Abyss, will seize Satan and throw him into the Abyss where he will be imprisoned for a thousand years, which is during the thousand year reign of Christ.



The final judgment, also known as the great white throne judgment, takes place at the end of the thousand years, which will consist of all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. They will be resurrected, with their spirits being let out of Hades to be united with their resurrected bodies and will stand before God at the great white throne to be judged for every idle word they ever spoke.



Sorry, but scripture is very clear that there will be a thousand year period following the tribulation period. The only way that you can claim that there isn't, is by ignoring, allegorizing or symbolizing the thousand years which is mentioned six times in succession.



Most assuredly, Jesus will return with both His angels and His church. For the scriptures proclaim both groups will return with Him.



The Day of the Lord, also known as "the hour of trial" is neither a day nor an hour in length, but instead represents the time period in which God will pour out His wrath and which is seven years in length. The earth isn't destroyed until after the millennial kingdom is over. Below is John speaking after the millennial kingdom and at the start of the great white throne judgment:

At the start of the great white throne judgment:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

After the great white throne judgment:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Absolutely crystal-clear to those who have eyes to see within ears to hear with.

 

[Truth7t7]

144,000 what. Christians? Prove it if you can.

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed Christians!

Revelation 7:2-4KJV
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[KJV1611]

You'll probably say of these two "prophets" (whose "their dead bodies" they will "not suffer to be put in graves" for those days) aren't really "people," but of the "ASCEND" word, this passage DOES say they do, and I don't believe (since I DO see them as humans [albeit "resurrected" ones!]) that they do so "by their own merit/works". No. :

Revelation 11 -

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.




[mid-trib will have already taken place at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth" (before this point in the chronology)]

I do believe the two witnesses are literal people. I lean toward the two witnesses as being the Old Testament saints. I can't explain it and I don't know that it's true for sure.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus did not expand on teachings which would be given to the apostles after His resurrection. The Risen Christ spent forty days with His apostles, teaching them of "the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God". In addition to that, He appeared to Paul several times and taught him many things which were not revealed to the other apostles, particularly the Mystery of the Church, the Resurrection, and the Rapture, as well as the Second Coming.

Now please note:
And he said unto them [AFTER HIS RESURRECTION], These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures... (Luke 24:44,45)

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Acts 1:3)

GALATIANS 1: PAUL TAUGHT DIRECTLY BY CHRIST IN ARABIA (AND ALSO AT OTHER TIMES)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Most people believe what they want to believe. I was in your shoes at one time so I know exactly where you're coming from.

 

[cv5]

Your correct I reject a pre-trib rapture of the church, and a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, neither one is found in the Scripture

A Big Pinocchio Fairy Tale!

Most of your false doctrines if not all of them have been utterly crushed in less than one chapter of the Bible. Effortlessly I might add. You want to live your Pinocchio fairytale you go ahead and live your Pinocchio fairytale. As for me I shall live the Truth and the reality of the infallible Word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rev 20)

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[KJV1611]

This is not meant to be an insult, it is only an objective observation:
I have never in all of my days met a person was more confused about the Bible than you are.
It really is astounding IMO.

I'm not offended. A person who believes every word exactly as written in the King James bible is going to have a totally different view of Christianity than people who don't do the same.

 

[Truth7t7]

I do believe the two witnesses are literal people. I lean toward the two witnesses as being the Old Testament saints. I can't explain it and I don't know that it's true for sure.

Thanks for your honesty!

I wrestled with this for some time, and there is no other way to view these "Two Witnesses" than literal, and the scenario is a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, with literal plagues, upon a literal world.

 

[cv5]

Most people believe what they want to believe. I was in your shoes at one time so I know exactly where you're coming from.

Absolutely false. Trust me when I tell you there are people that are fully and completely guided by the Word of God and that alone. How does one obtain this guidance pray tell?
This is how:

John 8:31,32

Therefore Jesus was saying to the Jews having believed in Him, "If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

 

[cv5]

I'm not offended. A person who believes every word exactly as written in the King James bible is going to have a totally different view of Christianity than people who don't do the same.

I have to say that I find your candor heartwarming. Have a nice evening.

 

[KJV1611]

Thanks for your honesty!

I wrestled with this for some time, and there is no other way to view these "Two Witnesses" than literal, and the scenario is a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, with literal plagues, upon a literal world.

I don't usually say things if I'm not close to 100% sure that what I'm saying is right... and if I'm guessing or theorizing I'll let it be know. I tell you what though, I have truly been blessed by this thread, God used this debate to concrete a few things I wasn't sure on and he showed me what the 1000 years really mean. I'm happy

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Truth7t7 said:
The Saints the the "Beast" overcomes and kills is the "Two Witnesses" when they finish their testimony Rev 11:1-15

Your suggestion that the Saints overcome represents the Church on earth is 100% false.

My claim? I made no such claim whatsoever.

Yeah, when I read that, I thought SURELY this is a quote by someone ELSE that accidentally got C&P into Truth7t7's post, coz it doesn't sound right...

I guess that happens.

Either that, or perhaps they totally MISUNDERSTOOD something you (or another poster) has said (from our viewpoint).


I read some writings by one such person who has TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD our "viewpoint" and has explained it like this:


[quoting] "The Church gets to enjoy no glory in Christ, only weakness and suffering. Unsaved Jews, on the other hand, get to enjoy all of Christ's glory as lords of planet earth when he returns at the 2nd advent." [end quoting of it]


Hmm... what do you detect in these two sentences (besides a total misunderstanding of our position on the matter) ?

I find it... very odd. lol.

And I wonder "how" they miss so many things we've ACTUALLY said and instead twist it into THIS kind of mess ^ , [*big smiles*]

lol


[read again 2Th1:7 "rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven..." and further down in vv.10-12 of chpt 1, and then other passages...; and recognize "the glory of God in two spheres"... we're not to usurp Israel's place and role by reading ourselves INTO, say, Matt24 Matt24:14[26:13], etc, etc... ]

 

[John146]

Enoch/Elijah

They never experienced a literal death, it's appointed unto every man to die HEB 9:27

Elijah dies in the tribulation. Hebrews 9:27 is a general statement about man. There are exceptions, Enoch being one. Also, those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not die, but be caught up to be with the Lord.

 

[John146]

Yes I agree, Neither Enoch nor Elijah ascended, so in Act's when it says David has not ascended, it isn't talking about making a trip to heaven with Jesus.

I would think, going by the language, that David's body has not been resurrected yet. The Lord may be waiting to resurrect David during the Millennial as Jesus takes David's throne. I'm not really sure.

 

[Truth7t7]

Most of your false doctrines if not all of them have been utterly crushed in less than one chapter of the Bible. Effortlessly I might add. You want to live your Pinocchio fairytale you go ahead and live your Pinocchio fairytale. As for me I shall live the Truth and the reality of the infallible Word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rev 20)

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

You post Revelation 20:1-6 as if you have reassurance of your Millennial Kingdom on this earth?

Where are Mortal Humans Present In Your Presented Verses?

There Ain't A One!

How can you use these verses to claim a mortal kingdomo on this earth, humans, Jesus On A Throne, Jews Running A Priesthood Animal Sacrifice?

Like I Said, A Big Pinocchio Fairy Tale!

 

[KJV1611]

I would think, going by the language, that David's body has not been resurrected yet. The Lord may be waiting to resurrect David during the Millennial as Jesus takes David's throne. I'm not really sure.

Jesus took David's throne 2000 years ago.