The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[DorothyMae]

When Jesus said "all flesh", He means exactly that. ALL FLESH including animals birds men fishes....everything.
So said God in the days of Noah as well.

Well, actually he said everything that has breathe in its nostrils I think. IN any case, no flood kills all the fish or marine life. Did not then either. Noah, by the way, did not operate an aquarium in the ark so the shark and tune and whales and eels could survive. He did not need to for obvious reasons.

No sane person actually believes this refers to the 70AD destruction.

Ah, the ad hominem argument when you are losing the debate. Those who have no reason to support their position quickly calls their oppenent nasty names. OK, cv5, we are done. I have no wish to try to discuss anything with people who call others nasty names when they are losing.

Adieu

 

[cv5]

Well, actually he said everything that has breathe in its nostrils I think. IN any case, no flood kills all the fish or marine life. Did not then either. Noah, by the way, did not operate an aquarium in the ark so the shark and tune and whales and eels could survive. He did not need to for obvious reasons.
Ah, the ad hominem argument when you are losing the debate. Those who have no reason to support their position quickly calls their oppenent nasty names. OK, cv5, we are done. I have no wish to try to discuss anything with people who call others nasty names when they are losing.

Adieu

Of course not the sea creatures, I can read. But in the Great Tribulation it will also INCLUDE the sea creatures which means it's even the greater cataclysm!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well, that is what you believe. God has never done this in the history of the world but that is the kind of being you think He is. I know I will not convince you otherwise.

"“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

 

[DorothyMae]

"“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

So how do you think this shows that God comes in a hostile take over of the world? Where do you see that in there? The rock that struck became (over time) a mountain and not a tyrannical government.

 

[DorothyMae]

Papyrus 98 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), designated by 98, is an early copy of the New Testament in Greek. It is a papyrus manuscript of the Book of Revelation. The manuscript palaeographically had been assigned to years "100–125AD(?)".

So, what happened SOON around 100 AD to roughly 150 AD that was catastrophic?

According to Church history, NADA!

It was in 70 AD and it was very big!

 

[DorothyMae]

Twice we have the reference 1,000 years equals 1 day. We know that is not literal but it is figurative in the viewpoint of TIME with God.
If we choose to use REASON HERE, soon to God could mean a Billion years in Theory.
In general. God deals with Eternal Time, not physical time like we abide by.

The problem is God is not communicating to himself but to men and so uses words we understand. The book actually states it is no his servants UNDERSTAND that events that are about to take place. He repeats soon many times. He means in a short time.

 

[DorothyMae]

Preterism: Both Preterism and Dispensationalism come from the Jesuits to deceive protestants from thinking the Papacy is Antichrist.

Preterism was formulated by the Jesuit scholar. Luiz de Alcazar (1554-1613). And offered for the same reason as was futurism: that is, A Roman response to Protestants to take the pressure off of Rome. …..Preterism is thus credited as a response to the Protestant’s historicism claims that the papal system was the antichrist or the "beast." Accordingly, it shares common origins with futurism (Dispensationalism), which was formulated for the same purpose. Death of the Church Victorious – Ovid Need

Since the christian living in Jerusalem in the first century KNEW it was pertaining to them, it doesn’t seem to have come from the jesuits since they came along millennia later.

 

[cv5]

It was in 70 AD and it was very big!

70AD was a firecracker compared to the GT thermonuclear bomb.

 

[DorothyMae]

70AD was a firecracker compared to the GT thermonuclear bomb.

That was the GT. But it’s clear you won’t be convinced. Let’s move on.

 

[cv5]

That was the GT. But it’s clear you won’t be convinced. Let’s move on.

Not even close. As point of reference we have:
1) the flood of Noah. Everyone dies save 8 persons and one rapture.
2) the Exodus plagues that simultaneously destroyed one nation and formed another
3) the conquest of Caanan that wiped out entire populations and slew the races of Nephilim

The GT will be greater than all these combined in terms of the display of Gods glory and wrath.

I fear you lack perspective!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It was in 70 AD and it was very big!

How big was it?

The Mt of Olives was split in half?

The light of the sun & moon were dimmed all day yet there appeared a different kind of light in the evening?

All mankind came to understand that YHVH was the only God at that time and have not questioned his authority since?

The flesh, tongues and eyes of the The Gentile invaders of Jerusalem rotted while they stood?

Panic struck those who warred against Jerusalem so that in terror they slew each other?

The cities of the nations collapsed in an earthquake which was larger than any earthquake in human history?

All these things somehow escaped the notice of historians in 70AD.
While the eruption of Vesuvius which buried Herculaneum and devastated Pompeii in 79AD was recorded.

 

[cv5]

How big was it?

The Mt of Olives was split in half?

The light of the sun & moon were dimmed all day yet there appeared a different kind of light in the evening?

All mankind came to understand that YHVH was the only God at that time and have not questioned his authority since?

The flesh, tongues and eyes of the The Gentile invaders of Jerusalem rotted while they stood?

Panic struck those who warred against Jerusalem so that in terror they slew each other?

The cities of the nations collapsed in an earthquake which was larger than any earthquake in human history?

All these things somehow escaped the notice of historians in 70AD.
While the eruption of Vesuvius which buried Herculaneum and devastated Pompeii in 79AD was recorded.

For me there is no heresy more concerning the denial of the imminent, near future Second Coming. Knowing what we now know it just seems quite frankly apalling that any Christian actually promulgates this view. I personally think that the Rapture is boilerplate Scriptural doctrine, but I'm willing to give and take a little as far as that goes. But not too much.

But to deny that the Lord Jesus Messiah is coming soon in the fullness of His glory, judgment, wrath, and for the purpose of redeeming His people Israel......no. I am not going to budge one single solitary inch.

 

[Dan_473]

Interesting. Is this based upon your belief Revelations was written in 68 AD or just from a hunch?

I don't have a particular belief about when the book of Revelation was written.

I'm not sure what you're referring to that might have been based on a hunch?

 

[Dan_473]

Do we?

There are times I write something and reread it and think, hmmm, that does not sound like me at all.

that could be the holy Spirit, or it could be some part of your mind of which you are unaware.

I wonder if your beliefs stem around the platform of your idealisms?

on one hand, I have no idea what you're saying.
on the other hand, if I take a guess at what you mean, everyone's beliefs relate to their ideals, I think.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I agree the Second Coming of Jesus is a vital part of any eschatology.

But you lose me at this so-called "rapture" which is not in the Bible (I am quite willing to look at harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, and show why it does not mean rapture).

Except Paul refers to that "event" [commonly called the rapture] something like nine or ten times in these two epistles [1 & 2 Thess], using a variety of phrases and terms... "harpazo/caught up/rapture" being just ONE of those.

Jesus does not want us navel gazing and doing nothing! He wants us to be involved with business as the excerpt from this parable says:

I'm not sure what makes you think that the concept of "harpazo/caught up/rapture" is in any way associated with "navel gazing". I fail to see the connection.

If you've seen my post about how the same Greek words are used in both 1Th5:10 and 1Th5:6 ("watch" and "sleep" which is a different "sleep" word from the one he'd used in the previous chpt at 4:13,14,15 and having a distinct meaning), you realize 1Th5:10 states, "Who died for us, THAT, whether we may WATCH or whether we may SLEEP [not meaning 'sleep-in-death' here (same 2 words as in v.6)], we should live together with [G4862] Him"...

what would be the purpose [at all] for "navel gazing"... There simply is NO CONNECTION whatsoever.

I fail to see any connection between the two concepts.

 

[cv5]

Just a general comment that I think was missed in this thread:
The Great Tribulation (The time of Jacob's trouble) is inextricably linked to the Redemption of Israel, the ethnic nation.

One will not happen without the other, and since Israel has yet to be redeemed fully, neither have yet happened.

 

[Dave-L]

Since the christian living in Jerusalem in the first century KNEW it was pertaining to them, it doesn’t seem to have come from the jesuits since they came along millennia later.

How did they know what the Jesuits aimed at protestants long before the Reformation? Can you show this teaching in history any time before the Reformation? What you say is not true unless you can.

 

[Dino246]

This thread, like so many before it, has become trench warfare.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just a general comment that I think was missed in this thread:
The Great Tribulation (The time of Jacob's trouble) is inextricably linked to the Redemption of Israel, the ethnic nation.

One will not happen without the other, and since Israel has yet to be redeemed fully, neither have yet happened.

Right.

(I addressed that in Post #230/#231)

--BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs," [included in what comes "before" is-->] they are "led away captive into all the nations" (Lk21:24);

--but what comes AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs" [and more of same] is, they shall be gathered "one by one" to worship the Lord in the holy mount, at Jerusalem (Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:13-14), a completely OPPOSITE "end / outcome".



They cannot be the same [at one point in time (i.e. 70ad alone)]

 

[biker]

I can assure you, the date of the birth of Polycarp is not my personal opinion. The date of the fall of Jerusalem is not my personal opinion. I can give you other posts that were not my personal opinion.

Now I work with Professors, a notch up from PhD and am not impressed with their knowing more on any subject because they got a PhD in one narrow field of study. That fact that you think this means they never write their personal opinion does not speak well of your judgement. And one thing I know for absolute certain, PhDs in theology or philosophy are very much personal opinions since no unbiased experiments can ever be done to show validity of a theory. Popular vote is not of any use.

You should have made a career in politics. Or better yet, as an used car salesperson.