The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Absolutely]

May I ask you a question or two?
Do you actually believe in the supernatural plagues of the Exodus and the miraculous events at mount Sinai exactly as they are written? Do you believe in the miraculous events of the 38 year sojourn (manna, pillar of fire pillar of cloud, shoes/clothes not wearing out etc)?

BTW, The fact that their shoes and clothes did not wear out is really a remarkable miracle in itself!
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/29-5.htm

The flying scorpion description paraphrased from memory
Teeth like lions
Faces of men
Hair like a woman
Scorpion stingers
Etc.

Now,let them spiritualized away.
Because there is no such thing ever visited the planet.

But they sting ALL PEOPLE but the 144k.

So where is that in history?????

What a debacle for the historicist view.

 

[Absolutely]

Another dynamic....
Rev 14 has 144k arriving in heaven DURING THE GT.
Followed by the remnant jews raptured by Jesus on a cloud.

So,in 70 ad that happened as well?

Will await some explaination.

 

[cv5]

I agree the Second Coming of Jesus is a vital part of any eschatology.

But you lose me at this so-called "rapture" which is not in the Bible (I am quite willing to look at harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, and show why it does not mean rapture). But even if it were there, one mention of something so important you are willing to call me a heretic, but is not found elsewhere in the Bible is not enough scripture to invent a doctrine.. And people being "taken" is poor application of hermeneutical principles.

So, you have an extremely "iffy" proposition called a Rapture, unsupported in the Bible, and you call me a heretic? For reading what is in the Bible, rather than believe in something that is not there, but, a lot of people think it is!

The real lie is dispensationalism. It has also captured so many people in this snare, where end times becomes all consuming, and even dispensationalist raging with one another about the interpretation of Rev., and the timing of Christ's return, complicated by a false doctrine which keeps people from keeping there eyes focused of God, rather than events!

"keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Now that's a real "end times" verse.

Finally, God wants us to be transformed into the image of Christ. There are many places this is commanded, both how to do it, and the results like the fruits of the Spirit.

"Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect." Romans 12:2

Jesus does not want us navel gazing and doing nothing! He wants us to be involved with business as the excerpt from this parable says:

"And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." Hebrews 19:13

It always amazes me the obsession with eschatology. Instead, we need to be changing and following a Christ.

"We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit" 1 Cor 3:18

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. -Isaiah 26:19-21

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. - Zephaniah 2:3

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. -Psalm 27:5

There are also hints of OT types of the rapture of which I am sure everyone knows very well:
Enoch, Daniel, Ruth, Issac.

 

[cv5]

Another dynamic....
Rev 14 has 144k arriving in heaven DURING THE GT.
Followed by the remnant jews raptured by Jesus on a cloud.

So,in 70 ad that happened as well?

Will await some explaination.

Indeed.
(Rev 14:6-7)
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

 

[tanakh]

Tanakh, as a figure of speech I like to say that we have the "waiters" and the "debaters".
The "waiter" are doing exactly as they are commanded. They are on top of their game.
The "debaters"? Not so much, and I'm afraid they are going to quite literally "miss the boat".

Well that doesnt hold out much hope for anyone on this site and this forum in particular because its full of people debating.
Jesus told us to spread the Gospel and in his parable of the sheep and the Goats he listed the things we should be doing while he
was away . sitting with our hat in our hands while the rest of the world goes to hell in a basket isnt mentioned.

 

[cv5]

Well that doesnt hold out much hope for anyone on this site and this forum in particular because its full of people debating.
Jesus told us to spread the Gospel and in his parable of the sheep and the Goats he listed the things we should be doing while he
was away . Waiting with our hat in our hands while the rest of the world goes to hell in a basket isnt featured in my Bible.

The point I was trying to make is that some people do not believe that the Son is coming from heaven at any moment which is a violation of the explicit command of Christ. Really it has to do with unbelief.

But.....absolutely we are to occupy until He comes and work!
We all know the parables that indicate our stewardship.
But all the while we are anticipating the return of the Son from heaven.

No argument there we are absolutely to apply ourselves and be busy and strive to please our Lord. The great commission is number one priority.

 

[cv5]

Well that doesnt hold out much hope for anyone on this site and this forum in particular because its full of people debating.
Jesus told us to spread the Gospel and in his parable of the sheep and the Goats he listed the things we should be doing while he
was away . sitting with our hat in our hands while the rest of the world goes to hell in a basket isnt mentioned.

Here let me put it another way. There shouldn't be any debating about waiting. The commands, warnings and exhortations by Christ Himself and also throughout all of the NT are quite frankly so overwhelming and so numerous that they cannot be ignored. Despite all of this, amazingly, they ARE ignored or worse....outright denied.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here let me put it another way. There shouldn't be any debating about waiting. The commands, warnings and exhortations by Christ Himself and also throughout all of the NT are quite frankly so overwhelming and so numerous that they cannot be ignored. Despite all of this, amazingly, they ARE ignored or worse....outright denied.

"Be dressed for service and keep your lamps burning. Then you will be like servants waiting for their master to return from the wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks, they can open the door for him at once. Blessed are those servants whom the master finds on watch when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve and will have them recline at the table, and he himself will come and wait on them. Even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night and finds them alert, those servants will be blessed!

 

[tanakh]

The point I was trying to make is that some people do not believe that the Son is coming from heaven at any moment which is a violation of the explicit command of Christ. Really it has to do with unbelief.

But.....absolutely we are to occupy until He comes and work!
We all know the parables that indicate our stewardship.
But all the while we are anticipating the return of the Son from heaven.

No argument there we are absolutely to apply ourselves and be busy and strive to please our Lord. The great commission is number one priority.

Jesus said no one knows the Day or the Hour not that he was coming at any moment Only Pre Tribbers believe that. I already posted something about this citing how Peter was told by Jesus that he would grow old and die. Its unlikely that he believed that Christ would come at any moment. Also in Acts the disciples were told he would return the same way as he left. I believe Christ comes with the spirits of the righteous dead at the end of the tribulation and they receive glorified bodies those believers still alive will also be glorified and meet him in the air. They decend with him to the Mount of Olives and defeat the Antichrist and false Prophet at Armageddon. Please also refer to Matthew 24:29-36

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Matthew 24:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[DorothyMae]

So far, your answers have only been personal opinions. At least the copy/pastes I present have phd's, not personal agenda such as what I read from you!

I can assure you, the date of the birth of Polycarp is not my personal opinion. The date of the fall of Jerusalem is not my personal opinion. I can give you other posts that were not my personal opinion.

Now I work with Professors, a notch up from PhD and am not impressed with their knowing more on any subject because they got a PhD in one narrow field of study. That fact that you think this means they never write their personal opinion does not speak well of your judgement. And one thing I know for absolute certain, PhDs in theology or philosophy are very much personal opinions since no unbiased experiments can ever be done to show validity of a theory. Popular vote is not of any use.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1 Thessalonians 1:

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


vs 10 — "to wait" (Gr anaménō):

362 anaménō (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies 3306 /ménō, "wait, remain") – properly, earnestly wait (linger, abide); actively wait with rising intensity and clarity about what is hoped for (note the prefix, ana).​

​

HELPS Word-studies​

 

[DorothyMae]

May I ask you a question or two?
Do you actually believe in the supernatural plagues of the Exodus and the miraculous events at mount Sinai exactly as they are written? Do you believe in the miraculous events of the 38 year sojourn (manna, pillar of fire pillar of cloud, shoes/clothes not wearing out etc)?

BTW, The fact that their shoes and clothes did not wear out is really a remarkable miracle in itself!
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/29-5.htm

You can ask me any number of questions as long as they don't insult my character or intelligence. Those questions have only one adgenda.

I believe strongly that the plagues of Egypt were supernatural in origin. Mt. Sinai involved God giving Moses tablets which is God "doodling" as it were which I do not think is supernatural. I do not think lightening supernatural. I think it is part of what happens when he is more present. So Mt. Sinai I am not sure. I guess the earth swallowing up people is supernatural. I do believe the 38 year wandering was completely surrounded by the supernatural. Very much. And that their shoes did not wear out is really cool and definately supernatural. Water from the rock supernatural.

Now the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem were partly supernatural obviously, partly supernatural in origin although not so obvious, and partly simply the Romans which did not require God to act.

Does that tell you what you want to know?

 

[DorothyMae]

Yes, using a cat of 9 tails on Christ to the point you could see his bodily organs, torn flesh, rib cage, blood everywhere, mocking Him, punching Him, spitting upon Him, calling Him names, shoving a crown of thorns onto His skull, forcing Him to carry His own Cross, stripping the King of kings/Lord of lords completely nude before all to belittle Him was in your words, "The Romans had law. They weren’t just mean."

You can cast ignorant aspirsions on the Romans but the whole world admired their system of law and order. If one fell afoul of the government, punishment was swift, especially if one was not a Roman citizen. For citizens the rules were different which is why Paul was not crucified. I mean if you think they were mean, there is definately your very personal opinion and has no validity in a discussion. To call one party "mean" is fairly juvenile and contributes nothing.

It is a fact that a 90 year old man who no longer can walk and cannot speak poses no threat. None at all. It is a really desperate and silly argument to say they did it cause they were mean.

I don't think you have the first clue about who the Romans were!

Actually, I seem to they were just plain mean. End of discussion. I know something about their laws and government (and how and when it changed), what it meant to be a citizen, and other matters. You just know they were "mean."

Several Believers were boiled in oil, beaten and left to die unmercifully, read the Book of Martyrs, pregnant women were slit open and their fetus fell onto the ground, etc...

You want to hear what the Muslims have done to Christians? Then there are how the Anabaptists were treated and how the Catholics treated the believers who dared to have a Bible. We can go on and on. Are they all just plain "mean?"

Yeah, them Romans weren't just mean...do you even understand what you're saying?

OK, I give up.

 

[DorothyMae]

I've got news. Jesus is coming in a violent military takeover ruthlessly taking over control of the whole planet. In fact he is repossessing what is rightfully His, as He has paid the price of possession. And He is going to kick out the bums, rebels, Satanic entities and wicked tenants. He already kicked out the Pharisees.

Well, that is what you believe. God has never done this in the history of the world but that is the kind of being you think He is. I know I will not convince you otherwise.

 

[DorothyMae]

Pot <> Kettle

Nonsequitar.

 

[DorothyMae]

That's fine. But I would really love to see you actually state your position regarding preterism.
On the other hand you seem to be dancing a jig while failing to commit to any particular position.
It just seems so disingenuous to me.

My position on Preterism is difficult to explain because I was trying to earlier and what I believe, apparently is NOT preterism which I always thought it was. So if I tell you my "lable," another guy here will tell you that is NOT Preterism. SO I do not have a label. But you can ask what I believe and pick a label you like. I am not fussy.

 

[DorothyMae]

You definitely have proven to have every excuse needed to continue the way you believe. Even your own excuses do not match how the Romans believed, they only match your reasoning. There are no facts to base upon your assumptions because they are only your assumptions.

Well, these are actually reasons rooted in history and the scripture but you need to call them "excuses" which is pretty disgenuine of you. Your understanding of the Romans is summed up in the juvenile expression "mean" that I more often heard in grade school than university. Again, in one post I mentioned the birth of Polycarp. That was a fact, not my personal opinion. That you think it was my personal opinion is merely your personal opinion. Reminds me of your description of the Romans.

 

[cv5]

Well, that is what you believe. God has never done this in the history of the world but that is the kind of being you think He is. I know I will not convince you otherwise.

I was simply quoting your post in agreeing with it.
BTW, the conquest of Canaan was a violent military takeover. And astute Bible students know that the conquest of Canaan was a microcosm of the second coming of Jesus Christ when he takes over the entire world!

 

[Dan_473]

I think you've got that exactly backwards friend. If Jesus has returned already and left this world in the present horrific state.....all hope is LOST.

that's a good point!

as I read it, different passages in the Bible seem to describe Jesus returning in different ways.

one thing that baffles me is that my Christian brothers and sisters who are expecting an Antichrist to come and take charge of a One World Government are often anxious about news that might lead to the rise of a One World Government.
and they often want to try to fight against this one world government.
or they are concerned about not recognizing the mark of the beast in time. again, anxiety.
I don't understand that.

just as I'm pretty sure but there are varieties of dispensationalism, there are also varieties of preterism.

so, not believing that there will be literal locusts the size of horses does not mean that one also has to believe that all events described in the book of Revelation have already happened.

add to that the idea the prophecy doesn't seem to be always given in order
Isaiah 40:1 "Comfort, comfort my people," says your God. 2 "Speak comfortably to Jerusalem; and call out to her that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." 3 The voice of one who calls out, "Prepare the way of the Lord in the wilderness! Make a level highway in the desert for our God.

Jerusalem's warfare has ended, and then John the Baptist comes on the scene in the above passage.