yes and in the angels interpretation it's says it will happen not by human power.
Can you see it implies it's all spiritual
TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!
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Can you see it implies it's all spiritual
One has to begin by defining what the language means. I don't have time to go through everything now, but I'll do a flyover.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. The devil didn't create heaven or earth. So the destruction of creation is not in view. For example, when sin was introduced, God didn't destroy. Even the Flood didn't destroy the earth. But the earth was made new. It is in this sense, but spiritually, that I believe is in view.
And this is what happened at the cross. The old order passed away and a new covenant was established. But more than that, spiritually things were realigned. Satan was given virtual free reign to this point; but no longer. Jesus relieved Him of the keys to death and hell, announced that all authority belonged to Him. The church was going to begin and grow and hell itself was insufficient to stop it. He endued the church with gifts and power equal to that exhibited in His resurrection. There's a new Sheriff in town. And a new way of doing things. This is the new earth that is born from above and comes down from heaven...the church.
As far as fire and chaos that is employed in pictures of judgment in the passage you cited and many other passages, notice how closely and oppositely it mirrors the language of creation. It is in essence symbolic decreation language.
Here you go @Pilgrimshope
So what parts of this scripture hasn't been happening since Jesus said your enemy is looking to devour you spiritually
Daniel’s Visions Interpreted
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me, and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, for ever and ever.’
19 “Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
So what parts of this scripture hasn't been happening since Jesus said your enemy is looking to devour you spiritually
Daniel’s Visions Interpreted
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me, and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, for ever and ever.’
19 “Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
i just read what it says and believe that
“I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.”
Daniel 7:15-17
My point is the entire book further explains through other visions of the same four kingdoms and it identifies the four kingdoms as Babylon , media Persia , Greece , and Rome. But people have to read those things before they will see them
Daniel interprets nebucadnezzars dream
“Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, ( media Persia )
and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. ( Greece )
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: ( the Roman Empire ) and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;….
Daniel 2:37-44 KJV
Daniels other visions after chapter 7
“And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. ( Alexander the Great )
Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. ( Alexander was killed and his four generals divided and became four kingdoms at war)
And in the latter time of their kingdom, ( Grecian empire ) when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. ( Nero ) And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.”( the persecution of the Jews and chrirtians inder Nero in first century including ad70 and the destruction of Jerusalem and thier temple )
Daniel 8:15-24 KJV
daniel sees visions and then they are explained what they mean the different visions about four kingdoms rising up are meant to be put together to understand that Babylon was the first kingdom that would rule over Jerusalem , then media persi would overthrow Babylon and rule over them , then Greece led by Alexander the Great would overthrow Persia and rule over them , Greece would be spit apart and after things settled the Roman Empire rose up and ruled over Jerusalem eventually in ad70 destroying the city and temple as Daniel had foretold
further understanding of what Daniel saw in his vision of the four beasts is found in revelation
it specifically explains what the vision means is my point pretty thoroughly
yes but is says The beast will rise out of the earth spiritualy which is what human eye will not see
Satan took Jesus upto the top of the mountains there Satan showed him the kingdoms of the earth
okay but I know you are able to consider scripture
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
Isaiah 65:17-18
Why promise this ?
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
Isaiah 24:5-6, 20 KJV
But
“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.”
Isaiah 66:22 KJV
Do you see why Peter is saying this ?
“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
2 Peter 3:1-4, 7-14 KJV
Or why the biblical message ends like this
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
It’s hard for me to dismiss things like this because I’ve never read anywhere in the Bible where God said anything but this message that
he did this
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
he said this
“The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
And this
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
And so we need this
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
…because the end is going to happen
We need to be saved because creation is going to end in a lake of blazing fire
But we walk by faith in his word of promise agreed and not by what we can see or reason logically is possible
where does it say that friend ? but listen it’s okay if we don’t agree I was just trying to discuss not argue or anything like that
theres certainly a spiritual testament and fulfillment to come but I think ( just what I believe based on what I’ve studied in the Bible not what you must believe ) it isn’t what Daniel is prophesying his was literally fulfilled upon israel and ended thoer covenant blessing when they killed thier savior the son of God which brought to oss daniels foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem by rome the last kingdom in daniels prophesy
the spiritual things are found in the New Testament the kingdom of God
Each testament leads to Jesus coming he came once when he bore our sins fulfilling the old testamen and he will return again at the end of the world fulfilling the New Testament prophesy
saving believers before he destroys creation The new testement kingdom is spiritual so you need to look here where the spiritual fulfillment happens
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
In the end what’s in heaven will come to a new earth the spiritual things are where Jesus is
I get that you believe it's all literal. I could spend the time to build the argument for it being spiritual, but I don't believe you will find it convincing. But I will say this: everything that Satan has done to keep God's purposes to come to pass have failed. But they didn't fail because there were no consequences, but because God used the consequences to create good. God is more than a conqueror and calls us to be as well. The things Satan does to destroy us God uses to give us victory.
It's ok as i can handle any disagreement and it makes no difference to me if my disagreements are seen as argumentive.
I truly understand my views will not be agreed upon by all so why should i let that concern me.
Or why should I neglect humility talking about the holy words of the bible that demands the up most respect.
If I search the scriptures to prove people wrong then my lord will not lead me to revelation.
This I have learnt, if I seek him to lead me to scripture to reveal his wisdom he never faulters.
He always gives his wisdom freely this way to me.
The message I got from God is to often I have not seen the spiritual message in the old testament, and maybe this is it how it is for many other too.
good brother I’m glad we’re on the same page regarding no offense taken or given that’s always a welcome position here in my opinion God bless thanks for the discussion
“The things Satan does to destroy us God uses to give us victory.”
Yes indeed brother that’s the truth
yes and I'm glad you've seen that, I haven't forgot how long you have studied his word and i have respect for your tolerance
If I was understanding you correctly was a part of you believing the four kingdoms of the beast has already been revealed, it felt as if you where in agreement of that.
Yes I offer you the same brother sometimes people dont agree and I feel like that’s alright , it’s only when we start giving and receving offense or just constantly argument it sort of drains my spirit when it turns to thatyes and I'm glad you've seen that, I haven't forgot how long you have studied his word and i have respect for your tolerance
i don’t think it matters how long I’ve studied the Bible I’ve learned a lot from people half my age since I been here I think it benefits us to discuss our studies with others because many times someone notices something we haven’t .
if we all already brought the same things about every subject no one could ever benefit the other through discussing or sharing anything disagreement is sort of where conversations begin or at least two people with two differing ideas often becomes a fruitful discussion but if they already fully agree and know the same things doesn’t seem a benefit
Yes my belief is if we just read the entire book of Daniel it’s explained in writing that the four kingdoms are Babylon , media Persia , Greece which is the beast with four heads Alexander’s four generals , who broke apart and reformed as the most powerful nation on earth the Roman Empire in the times of Jesus of Nazareth and the following decades until about 120 ad but especially including the destruction by rome of Jerusalem and it’s temple but also the great persecution of Jerusalem and the Christian’s under Nero and Titus that occured until 120or so ad
But the New Testament has prophecy for Jesus return the end of the earth and a sort of “second coming of the beast” also that will rise with ten other nations before jesus returns
“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
The beast that thou sawest was, ( past tense ) and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: ( future tense ) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, ( past tense ) and is not, and yet is.( future tense )
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( Babylon Persia Greece ect leading to the Roman Empire ruling in johns day ) and one is,and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. ( Nero was about to rule and persecute and Jill the saints and church it was short but horrific and massive )
And the beast that was, ( past tense ) and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; ( future tense ) but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. ….
Revelation 17:7-8, 10-14 KJV
This leads to armeggedon of course and the end upon Jesus return
there is an ending to the Old Testament and also an end foretold for us in the new just as Jesus came then he will return later the beast that was then , will return for w short time later with ten others who serve him , three of those ten he will destroy by power leaving seven making him the eighth king.
aim saying there was a natural fulfillment t that is based on da irks prophesy and a spiritual one based on the New Testament prophesy and it will happen again at the end on a greater scale
just as Jerusalem was burned and destroyed when Jesus returns the whole world is going to be burned and destroyed
This is where it gets a bit haywire to me, I've understood that when Jesus was killed the authority of priesthood was taken from the earth, because satan was then given the power to accuse Gods children day and night. Which is a great apostacy to me.
This is still happening.
The fact that this is happening may well be that the beast has got more power over the earth and grown more horns.
The beast is reference to BOTH a man and a kingdom.
However.....never dismiss the man aspect. It is preeminent.
Christ is the GOD-MAN, the AC is the Satan-man. Both of them walking talking and interacting with men.
Haman: type of the AC
Balak: type pf the AC
Saul: type of the AC
Goliath: probably the most pertinent, prominent and specific type of the AC in the OT.
Judas: type of the AC and actually may be THE RESURRECTED AC, as he went to "his place".....the abyss. And perhaps will be called out of it.
Rev 11:7
And when they shall have completed their testimony, the beast who comes up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and shall conquer them, and shall kill them:
Rev 17:8
The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.
Rev 20:3
and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should not any more deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little time.
satan is accusing Gods children day and night all over thee world, at once a time those children where limited to one place Isreal.
So seeing has his children are now spread over all of the world am i to believe the beast hasn't spread all over the world to
.Should I also believe that since satan is accusing Gods children day and night all over the world, that the kingdom of the beast is bigger than 4 nation since where discussing only 4 kingdoms of the beast initially came out of the earth. How are those kingdom of the beast, still just limited to the middle east
makes no sense to me that satan accusing Gods children day and night, is not grounds to believe you will be raptured before tribulation starts.