Systematic Bible Study
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WADR, that does not say that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us. It is saying that my own righteousness in putting my own faith in Christ, is superior to the righteousness of my own that I used to produce by striving to keep the Mosaic law.
"... not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that [righteousness of my own] which [comes] through faith in Christ."
"Abraham believed God and it [Abraham's believing God] was imputed/reckoned/accounted to him [Abraham] as righteousness. Paul did not say that God's own righteousness was imputed to Abraham.
Can you present a text that actually says that God's own righteousness, or Christ's own righteousness, is imputed or reckoned to believers?
"... not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that [righteousness of my own] which [comes] through faith in Christ."
"Abraham believed God and it [Abraham's believing God] was imputed/reckoned/accounted to him [Abraham] as righteousness. Paul did not say that God's own righteousness was imputed to Abraham.
Can you present a text that actually says that God's own righteousness, or Christ's own righteousness, is imputed or reckoned to believers?
I think the text I cited come close enough. It is illogical to think that after saying he does not have righteousness of his own via obeying the law that Paul would say he has righteousness of his own that "comes from God on the basis of faith" (PHP 3:10).
I am surprised that you think a person can be saved by having their own righteousness apart from (outside of) being "IN" Christ.
I am surprised that you think a person can be saved by having their own righteousness apart from (outside of) being "IN" Christ.
PaulThomson said:
WADR, that does not say that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us. It is saying that my own righteousness in putting my own faith in Christ, is superior to the righteousness of my own that I used to produce by striving to keep the Mosaic law.
"... not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that [righteousness of my own] which [comes] through faith in Christ."
"Abraham believed God and it [Abraham's believing God] was imputed/reckoned/accounted to him [Abraham] as righteousness. Paul did not say that God's own righteousness was imputed to Abraham.
Can you present a text that actually says that God's own righteousness, or Christ's own righteousness, is imputed or reckoned to believers?
It is not illogical to interpret the text as I have.
I would be surprised if I thought that too. I am surprised that you think I said,
"a person can be saved by having their own righteousness apart from (outside of) being "in Christ."
How does a sinner "put their own faith in Christ" but not become "in Christ" and saved?
WADR, that does not say that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us. It is saying that my own righteousness in putting my own faith in Christ, is superior to the righteousness of my own that I used to produce by striving to keep the Mosaic law.
"... not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that [righteousness of my own] which [comes] through faith in Christ."
"Abraham believed God and it [Abraham's believing God] was imputed/reckoned/accounted to him [Abraham] as righteousness. Paul did not say that God's own righteousness was imputed to Abraham.
Can you present a text that actually says that God's own righteousness, or Christ's own righteousness, is imputed or reckoned to believers?
It is not illogical to interpret the text as I have.
I would be surprised if I thought that too. I am surprised that you think I said,
"a person can be saved by having their own righteousness apart from (outside of) being "in Christ."
How does a sinner "put their own faith in Christ" but not become "in Christ" and saved?
Re "It is not illogical to interpret the text as I have.": Well, I supported my logic/intepretation/critque with "after saying he does not have righteousness of his own via obeying the law that Paul would say", so please explain yours.
I thought you said "a person can be saved by having their own [apart from or outside of Christ's] righteousness [=salvation], because you said "not having a righteousness [=salvation] of my own that comes from the law, but that righteousness [=salvation] of my own [not Christ's or because of being in Christ]".
How does a sinner have a righteousness of their own rather than/apart from that which is credited by God because of becoming one with Christ through faith?
I thought you said "a person can be saved by having their own [apart from or outside of Christ's] righteousness [=salvation], because you said "not having a righteousness [=salvation] of my own that comes from the law, but that righteousness [=salvation] of my own [not Christ's or because of being in Christ]".
How does a sinner have a righteousness of their own rather than/apart from that which is credited by God because of becoming one with Christ through faith?
My version of EPH 1:5
EPH 1:5, “In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
It appears that your translation (PTT) is close to the NIV.
“In love” alludes to the truth that God is love (1JN 4:8) as well as creator (RM 1:20).
“Predestined” means the same as “before creation” in verse 4.
“Adopted as sons” is mentioned in RM 8:23 & 9:4, where it coincides
with receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming co-heirs with Christ,
which is what “through Jesus Christ” and “in Christ” also mean.
“In accordance with his pleasure” combines God’s love and power to predestine
“and will” includes what was stated in v.4: for saints to be holy/blameless
Over...
EPH 1:5, “In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
It appears that your translation (PTT) is close to the NIV.
“In love” alludes to the truth that God is love (1JN 4:8) as well as creator (RM 1:20).
“Predestined” means the same as “before creation” in verse 4.
“Adopted as sons” is mentioned in RM 8:23 & 9:4, where it coincides
with receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming co-heirs with Christ,
which is what “through Jesus Christ” and “in Christ” also mean.
“In accordance with his pleasure” combines God’s love and power to predestine
“and will” includes what was stated in v.4: for saints to be holy/blameless
Over...
Where does the text say that God's righteousness is credited to Abraham as righteousness. Or that God's faith is credited to Abraham as Abraham's faith? 'It doesn't. It says that Abraham's faith/believing is credited to Abraham as righteousness done by Abraham.
Righteousness and salvation are two different words. They are spelt differently. They look different. They represent different concepts. So "righteousness (= salvation) is a not correct premise in your argument.
IMHO We are born with an ability to believe things. This is the same faculty of faith we put on to Christ to be saved.
Righteousness and salvation are two different words. They are spelt differently. They look different. They represent different concepts. So "righteousness (= salvation) is a not correct premise in your argument.
IMHO We are born with an ability to believe things. This is the same faculty of faith we put on to Christ to be saved.
That faith (and specifically faith in Christ) is the only righteousness looked upon as having any degree of merit says a whole lot about God's regard for Christ, doesn't it though? It's becoming more apparent to me that Adam was created, indeed, in need of perfection rather than already perfect, as perfection could, can, and would only come through Christ. I'm confident to assert that Abraham believed in God's capability of the resurrection of the dead and, in hindsight, I'm seeing that resurrection as absolutely necessary in achieving perfection, although an absolute impossibility for me if it weren't for Christ having become the Firstborn of the dead.
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What then do you think Paul means by the adoption -
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
versus
The spirit of adoption -
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It seems to me that the Holy Spirit makes us children of God, who have received the Holy Spirit of promise, predestined to receive adoption at the first resurrection: adoption in the First Century sense, not the 21st Century sense. Compare "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"with "until the redemption of the purchased possession".
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
versus
The spirit of adoption -
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It seems to me that the Holy Spirit makes us children of God, who have received the Holy Spirit of promise, predestined to receive adoption at the first resurrection: adoption in the First Century sense, not the 21st Century sense. Compare "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"with "until the redemption of the purchased possession".
Re "Where does the text say that God's righteousness is credited to Abraham as righteousness. Or that God's faith is credited to Abraham as Abraham's faith? 'It doesn't. It says that Abraham's faith/believing is credited to Abraham as righteousness done by Abraham.
RM 3:5, "our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly" and PHP 3:9, "that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ..."
Yes, righteousness and salvation are different words, but they are related and essentially equated in the two texts I quoted.
I agree that God gives humans the ability to believe from birth and that it can put faith in Chris--or not.
RM 3:5, "our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly" and PHP 3:9, "that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ..."
Yes, righteousness and salvation are different words, but they are related and essentially equated in the two texts I quoted.
I agree that God gives humans the ability to believe from birth and that it can put faith in Chris--or not.
I agree that A&E were created good, not perfect, and that perfection = the righteousness of Christ, which is credited to those who believe in God/Jesus. Yes, those credited with Christ's righteousness will not attain actual perfection until they are resurrected to heaven (PHP 3:10-16). Thanks for commenting.
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Actually, what I just posted to Mem answers your question regarding adoption: We receive the Spirit of adoption (HS) and are credited with the perfection = righteousness of Christ at conversion when we first believe in God/Jesus, and those credited with Christ's righteousness will attain actual perfection when they are resurrected to heaven (PHP 3:10-16). I interpret what you said as indicating we agree.
(Now we await your commentary regarding EPH 1:5 :^)
(Now we await your commentary regarding EPH 1:5 :^)
I should point out that I don't agree, but I don't want this thread to become contentious. I think we should simply try to clearly state our understanding of the texts, and we should field clarifying questions candidly.
I will leave it to readers to compare contributors' posts and draw their own conclusions about where and why we agree and disagree with each other. I don't want this thread to become dragged down into contentious debate. I will try to keep things respectful and peaceable from my end.
I will leave it to readers to compare contributors' posts and draw their own conclusions about where and why we agree and disagree with each other. I don't want this thread to become dragged down into contentious debate. I will try to keep things respectful and peaceable from my end.
I appreciate and agree with your attitude. As I say on my website, my reason for sharing is simply to share my fallible faith with others, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth. I am grateful to all people—famous philosophers and anonymous acquaintances—who have helped shape my beliefs. (That would include you :^)
Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” The discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context.
As truthseekers, whenever we encounter someone who has a contradictory understanding, we want to learn which is the better belief, to admit when we are wrong, and to change our opinion. As people-lovers we want to share our knowledge with other truthseekers, so that we may fellowship (2TM 4:3-4, 1JN 1:3).
Which option and opinion is best or most true? Answering this question involves understanding how truth is acquired (epistemology). Some knowledge is gleaned directly from personal experiences or reading of Scripture and is available to all who seek to know the truth with an open mind. A second possible way of obtaining knowledge is by learning from the insights or inspiration of others. Insights could be a combination of reflection and inspiration, perhaps taught by God’s indwelling Spirit, who Jesus said would “guide you into all truth” (JN 16:13).
Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” The discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context.
As truthseekers, whenever we encounter someone who has a contradictory understanding, we want to learn which is the better belief, to admit when we are wrong, and to change our opinion. As people-lovers we want to share our knowledge with other truthseekers, so that we may fellowship (2TM 4:3-4, 1JN 1:3).
Which option and opinion is best or most true? Answering this question involves understanding how truth is acquired (epistemology). Some knowledge is gleaned directly from personal experiences or reading of Scripture and is available to all who seek to know the truth with an open mind. A second possible way of obtaining knowledge is by learning from the insights or inspiration of others. Insights could be a combination of reflection and inspiration, perhaps taught by God’s indwelling Spirit, who Jesus said would “guide you into all truth” (JN 16:13).
11 Believers, do not speak against or slander one another. He who speaks [self-righteously] against a brother or judges his brother [hypocritically], speaks against the Law and judges the Law. If you judge the Law, you are not a doer of the Law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy [the one God who has the absolute power of life and death]; but who are you to [hypocritically or self-righteously] pass judgment on your neighbor?
13 Come now [and pay attention to this], you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and carry on our business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know [the least thing] about what may happen in your life tomorrow. [What is secure in your life?] You are merely a vapor [like a puff of smoke or a wisp of steam from a cooking pot] that is visible for a little while and then vanishes [into thin air].
James 4: 11-14
13 Come now [and pay attention to this], you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and carry on our business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know [the least thing] about what may happen in your life tomorrow. [What is secure in your life?] You are merely a vapor [like a puff of smoke or a wisp of steam from a cooking pot] that is visible for a little while and then vanishes [into thin air].
James 4: 11-14