Seventh Day Adventist

[ewq1938]

"Messianic Jews" is strictly applicable to believing Jews.

This remains wrong. A Jew in Judaism believes in a Messiah making them a Messianic Jew, and that was true and correct even back in the OT. The Jews originated the concept of being Jewish and believing in a coming Messiah.

And aren't most "Messianic Jews" (the Christian ones) Gentiles? Do they even believe they become Jews? The name really is strange when you really look at it. It also really reminds me of the whole replacement theology doctrine.

 

[RolloTamasi]

This remains wrong. A Jew in Judaism believes in a Messiah making them a Messianic Jew, and that was true and correct even back in the OT. The Jews originated the concept of being Jewish and believing in a coming Messiah.

And aren't most "Messianic Jews" (the Christian ones) Gentiles? Do they even believe they become Jews? The name really is strange when you really look at it. It also really reminds me of the whole replacement theology doctrine.

I believe most Messianic Jews are born Jewish.
I have worshiped with them for several years past and have supported Jews for Jesus since 1985.
I do believe I know a little bit about what I'm talking about.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe most Messianic Jews are born Jewish.

In my experience in online forums, most who said they were Messianic Jews were physical Gentiles by their own admission.

 

[Gideon300]

why do you say that?
The Sabbath was made for man .... not just the Jews
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

And the Sabbath was made holy and sanctified at creation before Sin entered and before any race of people started.
If the Sabbath was Holy from the start when did God make it unsanctified, or take the blessing away from it? Please use the bible.

The 10 commandments were the basis of God's covenant of laws with Israel, no one else. A day of rest each week is essential for good health, physical and mental. However, no one was telling that to the people of Asia and the Americas, or even Australia, in the days of Moses.

Deuteronomy 28 is the chapter devoted to God's incentive program to obey the law. There is blessing and cursing depending on obedience or disobedience. If there is no law, you cannot break it. It really is that simple. In Australia, the highest speed limit is 130 kph. Exceed the limit and you may be fined. In Germany, the autobahn has no speed limit. Go as fast as you dare, you will not be fined.

However, that does not mean that there are no consequences if there is no law. If you crash at 250 kph, it will be worse than a crash at 50 kph. If people work 7 days a week, all year, with no breaks, they will suffer. The sabbath is God's protection against workaholic burnout. It is a blessing, not the kind of dead, religious bondage that the pharisees made it out to be.

John 6:29 tells us the spiritual work that God requires of us - believe in Jesus. There is no sabbath break from that! The sabbath is physical rest. Hebrews 4 tells us about God's spiritual rest -

1Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it. 2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

3Now we who have believed enter that rest.

We enter God's rest by faith. When we are striving to be good, law (as in commandment) abiding Christians, we are not at rest. It's hard work. When we live in the light of the fact that God put us to death and that Lord Jesus is now the Christian's new life, we live in rest and peace.

All Christians should have a sign around their necks: "Under New Management". That management is, of course, the Lord Jesus. When He is running the show, everything works out. If we are trying to live the Christian life, we will fail just as surely as Israel failed God's covenant with them.

 

[SophieT]

Sure but it still remains that religious Jews who deny Jesus still believe in a Messiah making them Messianic Jews by definition. Christian or Christian is far more accurate and differentiates between those who accept Jesus as Messiah and those who believe in a different Messiah.

I was friends with an SDA Pastor of a local church near where I live. I attended a couple bible studies and came to watch a couple of their very dramatic end times movies. I think they get a lot of things correct, but the origins bother me, especially surrounding EW. While most of their teachings are essentially the same as many denominations, there is a bit of cultishness surrounding EW and a few other aspects. I voted "maybe".

Does anyone know if there are progressive SDA churches reject teachings or something similar?

LOL!

no. you are trying to pull a big ole walrus out of a tiny hole in the ice...also known as stretching things to fit your presentation

Messianic Jews are those who believe in Christ as their Messiah. you are not going to change definitions that millions go by in order to be right here. that is just silly

 

[SophieT]

In my experience in online forums, most who said they were Messianic Jews were physical Gentiles by their own admission.

well in my experience as a member in an actual Messianic congregation for about 2 years, I know that if you are Jewish and accept Christ you are a Messianic Jew. That, is how the term was coined

A Gentile who thinks they have become Jewish by going to a Messianic congregation or thinks they are more acceptable to God if they say Yeshua instead of Jesus, are actually still Gentile as actual Jews are still Jewish. That's a no brainer

 

[SophieT]

What's the big deal about 7th day adventists worshiping on a saturday?
Messianic Jews worship on saturdays and they all throw in a few laws to go along with it.
Why don't we criticize them for a while?

well boy howdy what is the big deal

the big deal is being told you are going to hell unless you worship on Saturday. lost track of that did you?

there is no big deal unless some people make it so

I'm a firm believer in Colossians 2...which has been covered several times in this thread now

do you have a beef with Messianic Jews?

 

[soberxp]

well boy howdy what is the big deal

the big deal is being told you are going to hell unless you worship on Saturday. lost track of that did you?

there is no big deal unless some people make it so

I'm a firm believer in Colossians 2...which has been covered several times in this thread now

do you have a beef with Messianic Jews?

Forgive me for I am not going to worship on Saturday and Sunday.

 

[SophieT]

I guess it was reinstated.

Isaiah 66:22-23
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

who was Isaiah prophesying to here? wayward Israel, after they rebuilt the temple

but God was not impressed.

however, because God is in a covenant relationship with Israel, He will not utterly destroy them. As the new creation will remain forever, so Israel will remain forever.

these are future events. this, is a prophecy.

why does Paul tell us that we are not bound to worship as did Israel? why does Paul scold the Galatians and have concern over the Colossians?

Paul, in Ephesians, reveals God's plan of Gentiles becoming co-heirs with the Jews IN Christ

again, Isaiah 66 is a prophecy not yet fulfilled and not a command for Gentiles or anyone for that matter as the prophet is describing what God is going to do in the future

the Bible cannot be in contradiction to itself

 

[SophieT]

Forgive me for I am not going to worship on Saturday and Sunday.

why?

do you think you are sinning? it's not my judgement though, is it.

what a strange comment to make

 

[soberxp]

why?

do you think you are sinning? it's not my judgement though, is it.

what a strange comment to make

JUst Forgive me several times or seventy times seven for I am not going to worship on Saturday and Sunday.

 

[Magenta]

JUst Forgive me several times or seventy times seven for I am not going to worship on Saturday and Sunday.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

 

[TMS]

We enter God's rest by faith. When we are striving to be good, law (as in commandment) abiding Christians, we are not at rest. It's hard work. When we live in the light of the fact that God put us to death and that Lord Jesus is now the Christian's new life, we live in rest and peace.

All Christians should have a sign around their necks: "Under New Management". That management is, of course, the Lord Jesus. When He is running the show, everything works out. If we are trying to live the Christian life, we will fail just as surely as Israel failed God's covenant with them.

Yes we do enter Gods rest by faith and we don't take the Lords name in vain by faith and we don't steal or murder by faith.
We are under new management and that management is Christ, When we are born again.
i agree that we can not do it in our own strength. We need to rely on Christ in us and that comes by faith.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You seem to be saying that we need to forget the law so that we don't see the sins that are killing us.
Or saying that by keeping the law it means we become frustrated and realize that we are sinful and need salvation.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

The Lord is ready to help all who need help and feel that need. If you see your poverty and wretchedness before God, and earnestly take hold of His strength, He will help, and bless, and impart strength to you.
Will you see yourself?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

By seeing our sinfulness we will say what Paul said " I die daily."

 

[RolloTamasi]

well boy howdy what is the big deal

the big deal is being told you are going to hell unless you worship on Saturday. lost track of that did you?

there is no big deal unless some people make it so

I'm a firm believer in Colossians 2...which has been covered several times in this thread now

do you have a beef with Messianic Jews?

Let's see... The OP offers a poll asking if we thought it was a cult.
I said no.
Then the OP writer went on to say they did not believe it was a cult either.
Plus I answered some of your thoughts about me in post #162.
And no, I have no beefs against Messianic Jews, and I thought people were ganging up on SDA for legalistic purposes which is a joke because it is no more true than being a member of the Methodist church, and I simply offered Messianic Jews as an example of how terribly off base this thread has become.

But I'm new here.
Is this how it's done around here?

 

[pottersclay]

The appointed times, feast , holidays, theses are the Lord's that he wishes to share with us.
Remembering the sabbath and keep it Holy...a commandment.

No sacrifice necessary for Christ has fulfilled all that is required.
Does your salvation depend on theses things being observed???......no
Does God favor those who keep theses appointed times? It depends on what your seeking.

All of us who are healthy in our walk with the Lord should have a need, a want to draw closer to the Lord and his ways.

The Sabbath.
What harm is it to refrain from our earthly activity for a day and reflect on the goodness of God?
The decisions we made, the interaction we had, the teachings we heard. Success and failures,
Then to rest in his faithfulness to us. To see and point out his work in our lives. In this earth. In the heavens and to show and teach those around us . Our children, family and friends.

As you draw closer to the Lord he draws closer to you. What better way to do this than to enter in to his rest. Which is Christ Jesus.

These things are done in unity, with family, friends, with feast and opportunity to share and remember.
Keeping alive the mighty works of the Lord and his faithfulness towards us.

They do build faith, endurance, hope, and communication between each other and God.
We as gentiles have entered into God's kingdom, his ways, by his grace, by his imputed righteousness.
By his sacrifice.

Do we have to observe theses? Is it a requirement? No... just a invitation for a closer walk and understanding.
Please note that in the book of revelation all nations will be required to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles. To once a year come up to Jerusalem to worship the king.
And if they forget or refuse the rain will be with held from there land.

If it's important to God it should be important to us.

 

[Duckybill]

No Sabbath commands in the NT! ONLY in the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

And that ain't good!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I asked the question with a poll to see what others had to say on the SDA church and waited before making up my mind on this matter.

I at this time I do not see them as a cult as defined in post #14.

Cult is a group that claims to belong to a specific religion but misrepresents any core teaching that would prevent a believer from being saved according to that religion.

By comparing definitions does the SDA teach doctrines that would prevent a believer from being saved?

(Their view on the Sabbath being a indicator who is saved and who is not, may be exclusive to Sunday worshippers but by believing that belief I do not see that limiting salvation as their is no harm in worshipping on Saturday. It may be annoying for us Sunday worshippers to hear we are not true Christians but so be it.)

Cult definition is - a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous.

(According to this definition the SDA are not considered extreme or dangerous physically so the term cult under this definition may not apply also)

I still see no compelling arguments to persuade my view on the Sabbath as being a spiritual everyday acknowledgement.

I do believe Ellen White was a false prophet.

I believe she hurts the SDA's witness but with the SDA modern diversity, she may not be a acceptable as she once was. (Only speculation)

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The appointed times, feast , holidays, theses are the Lord's that he wishes to share with us.
Remembering the sabbath and keep it Holy...a commandment.

No sacrifice necessary for Christ has fulfilled all that is required.
Does your salvation depend on theses things being observed???......no
Does God favor those who keep theses appointed times? It depends on what your seeking.

All of us who are healthy in our walk with the Lord should have a need, a want to draw closer to the Lord and his ways.

The Sabbath.
What harm is it to refrain from our earthly activity for a day and reflect on the goodness of God?
The decisions we made, the interaction we had, the teachings we heard. Success and failures,
Then to rest in his faithfulness to us. To see and point out his work in our lives. In this earth. In the heavens and to show and teach those around us . Our children, family and friends.

As you draw closer to the Lord he draws closer to you. What better way to do this than to enter in to his rest. Which is Christ Jesus.

These things are done in unity, with family, friends, with feast and opportunity to share and remember.
Keeping alive the mighty works of the Lord and his faithfulness towards us.

They do build faith, endurance, hope, and communication between each other and God.
We as gentiles have entered into God's kingdom, his ways, by his grace, by his imputed righteousness.
By his sacrifice.

Do we have to observe theses? Is it a requirement? No... just a invitation for a closer walk and understanding.
Please note that in the book of revelation all nations will be required to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles. To once a year come up to Jerusalem to worship the king.
And if they forget or refuse the rain will be with held from there land.

If it's important to God it should be important to us.

The Sabbath.
What harm is it to refrain from our earthly activity for a day and reflect on the goodness of God?

Nothing is wrong with the Sabbath in less it is being taught legalistically. Thd physical application can be great for your health. The spiritual application is even better as it is a daily rest.

I believe the debate has been over the heresy that if you do not keep the Sabbath on Saturday then you will be a willing participant in taking the mark of the beast.

 

[Duckybill]

Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Amen Jesus, I won't!

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

Are the Sabbath commands under the Law? Absolutely! No Sabbath commands in the NT!

 

[RolloTamasi]

Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Amen Jesus, I won't!

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

Are the Sabbath commands under the Law? Absolutely! No Sabbath commands in the NT!

Ever been to an SDA hospital?
'I have.
They treat people better than other hospitals because they believe they are doing a service for God.
Most doctors and nurses in these hospitals are SDA members.
Most SDA are vegetarians.
To my knowledge, they all offer co-ops to their members.
They don't say you are wrong to eat meat but they promote a vegetable diet for health purposes.
Nothing wrong with that.
Don't know of any cults that do this.
For that matter, I don't know of any Presbytarian churches doing it either.