Secret Rapture
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No, no no. The barren are Jews. We agree. But the Desolate are Muslims.
For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband."
She who has a husband are the Jews. They have God as their husband. This verse is comparing and contrasting Jews and Muslims. It is clear. Therefore the desolate are the Muslims. Another way of saying it would be. "For the Muslims have many more children than the Jews.”
No, you STILL HAVE IT ALL WRONG!
The "barren" and "desolate" woman of Isa.54 are NOT unbelieving deceived Jews! They represent Christ's Church of BOTH believing Israelites and Gentiles!!!
The word "desolate" in Isa.54:1 is applied ALSO to the "barren" woman! Read it again!
Isa 54:1
54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
KJV
It's the "barren" whose wombs are desolate, yet are blessed! MEANS NOT MARRIED!!! WITHOUT CHILD! That's for the tribulation time she is to remain "barren".
But when her Salvation comes... THEN she will have MORE CHILDREN than the married wife! That "for more are the children of the desolate" is about the "barren" woman when CHRIST'S SALVATION COMES! That's why the next verse tells her to spread out her tents to include the Gentiles!
But for the coming tribulation prior, she is to remain BARREN, WITHOUT CHILD!
Haven't you understood Paul in 2 Cor.11 about presenting us to Christ as "a chaste virgin" for we are ESPOUSED to Christ as our True Husband??? We are NOT Married to Christ just yet, not until His coming! We are to WAIT on Him:
When Jesus comes, and finds you "with child" (spiritually) it means you did NOT WAIT for Him. You instead got MARRIED TO... Hmmm... just who is it that is coming first in our near future which Jesus warned us about???
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
The Jews are not going to place the Abomination, the Muslims will. The King of the North (of Israel) will be Muslim. It is his Abomination and it is "OF" him. Therefore the Abomination is of the desolate, which are Muslims. Muslims are the desolate.
Look at Jer 51.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord.
“And I will stretch out My hand against you,
Roll you down from the rocks,
And make you a burnt mountain.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They shall not take from you a stone for a corner
Nor a stone for a foundation,
But you shall be desolate forever,” says the Lord.
You shall be desolate forever!! See that??? The destroying Mountain is ISLAM.
It is the same destroying mountain that John discusses here in Rev 8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
The "Great Mountain burning with fire" = The Destroying Mountain of Jer 51. This "Mountain" is ISLAM. The "SEA" are the people of the area. A third of them will be lost spiritually.
The Jews are not going to place the Abomination, the Muslims will. The King of the North (of Israel) will be Muslim. It is his Abomination and it is "OF" him. Therefore the Abomination is of the desolate, which are Muslims. Muslims are the desolate.
Look at Jer 51.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord.
“And I will stretch out My hand against you,
Roll you down from the rocks,
And make you a burnt mountain.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They shall not take from you a stone for a corner
Nor a stone for a foundation,
But you shall be desolate forever,” says the Lord.
You shall be desolate forever!! See that??? The destroying Mountain is ISLAM.
It is the same destroying mountain that John discusses here in Rev 8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
The "Great Mountain burning with fire" = The Destroying Mountain of Jer 51. This "Mountain" is ISLAM. The "SEA" are the people of the area. A third of them will be lost spiritually.
You are emphasizing the wrong words. We agree on the Barren. They do not "travail with child." These are Jews.
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife = These are Muslims.
Can't you see two groups here?
1) Children of the desolate (Muslims) MANY
2) Children of the married wife (Jews) FEW
I don't know who in the world has bewitched you on this, but you are completely misunderstanding the whole point of the parable with the "barren" and "desolate" being about the woman's WOMB, but God using it in the spiritual worship sense!
Not all Jews are deceived away from Christ, so NO ONE can just up a say it's the Jews! Nor can it apply to Islam, God forbid!
Being the woman who's womb is found BARREN (spiritually) when Jesus comes is a GOOD THING per the meaning of that parable!
It's the one with that's the married wife found "with child" (or travailing with child, in labor) that God's WRATH will be upon.
The married wife represents the deceived unbelieving Jews, and the rest of the deceived world, including Islam!
WRONG AGAIN!
The "desolate" in Isaiah 54:1 is about the BARREN woman who is NOT PREGNANT! Don't you get it? If a womb is desolate, it means it is BARREN, not having children? This is so simple...
And I SHOWED you Luke 23 where our Lord Jesus quoted Isa.54 to JEWS - DECEIVED JEWS ("Daughters of Jerusalem" He said). Those represent the children of the DECEIVED Jews at the end who will INSTEAD bow to the coming FALSE CHRIST, and will be found WITH CHILD when Jesus comes!
"with child" = BAD!! Means your married the false Christ instead!
"barren" and "desolate" womb = GOOD! Means you didn't fall to worship the false Christ, but waited on Jesus' coming instead!
NOPE!
The "married wife" in the parable represent the DECEIVED Jews and deceived Islam, and anyone else who falls to worship the coming false messiah (that comes first).
I think you well understand this, but you're being hard-headed because it goes against the doctrine of men you're holding onto concerning Islam.
Isa 54:1-3
54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV
Once again, that idea of the barren woman who's womb did NOT bare nor gave suck, has a DESOLATE womb. That's what the idea of a barren womb means. Even in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul applied the idea of those who 'travail with child' being about the deceived.
1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV
Paul understood this metaphor from our Lord in Isaiah 54. The married wife and thus not barren, but instead found 'with child', is applied in the false worship sense for those who fall to worship the first one coming that claims to be Messiah (i.e., the Antichrist).
If your womb is still "barren" when our Lord Jesus does come, it means you DID NOT fall to worship the coming false Christ, and thus are still... "a chaste virgin" unto Christ (2 Cor.11).
This is why in Luke 23 our Lord Jesus told those Jews ("Daughters of Jerusalem") who wept for Him to instead weep for their children (of the future trib), because the day will come when those children (deceived unbelieving Jews) will say, "Blessed are the barren..." about those who DID remain Faithful waiting on Jesus, and then those deceived Jews will then want for the mountains and hills to fall on them out of shame. Those deceived Jews represent the "married wife" of the Isaiah 54 parable, which means when Jesus comes they will be found ALREADY married, AND with child (spiritually) from false worship to the fake Messiah.
This is why our Lord Jesus in Luke 21 was NOT speaking of literal pregnant women being in danger of suffering God's Wrath on that "days of vengeance", but He was actually reminding His servants about the Isaiah 54 parable, which is about His Church staying faithful with "barren" and "desolate" wombs waiting on Him, instead of being found "with child" to another in His place.
54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV
Once again, that idea of the barren woman who's womb did NOT bare nor gave suck, has a DESOLATE womb. That's what the idea of a barren womb means. Even in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul applied the idea of those who 'travail with child' being about the deceived.
1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV
Paul understood this metaphor from our Lord in Isaiah 54. The married wife and thus not barren, but instead found 'with child', is applied in the false worship sense for those who fall to worship the first one coming that claims to be Messiah (i.e., the Antichrist).
If your womb is still "barren" when our Lord Jesus does come, it means you DID NOT fall to worship the coming false Christ, and thus are still... "a chaste virgin" unto Christ (2 Cor.11).
This is why in Luke 23 our Lord Jesus told those Jews ("Daughters of Jerusalem") who wept for Him to instead weep for their children (of the future trib), because the day will come when those children (deceived unbelieving Jews) will say, "Blessed are the barren..." about those who DID remain Faithful waiting on Jesus, and then those deceived Jews will then want for the mountains and hills to fall on them out of shame. Those deceived Jews represent the "married wife" of the Isaiah 54 parable, which means when Jesus comes they will be found ALREADY married, AND with child (spiritually) from false worship to the fake Messiah.
This is why our Lord Jesus in Luke 21 was NOT speaking of literal pregnant women being in danger of suffering God's Wrath on that "days of vengeance", but He was actually reminding His servants about the Isaiah 54 parable, which is about His Church staying faithful with "barren" and "desolate" wombs waiting on Him, instead of being found "with child" to another in His place.
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popeye
Guest
Only posrib s use that term.
One of about 50 meaningless snarky clichés they have invented over the years.
None of their clichés has ever had minuscule traction.
Works in their circles.
Postrib rapture doctrine,is a fools paradise.
This parable in Isaiah 54 about the "barren", "desolate" woman's womb (GOOD THING) is yet another... way to KNOW that the Revelation Babylon Harlot is... fallen Jerusalem into idol worship during the tribulation. In that same Isaiah 54 chapter, that metaphor is applied to Jerusalem also. Per Lamentations she is in widowhood, which she is to REMAIN until Christ's coming for the Marriage to Jerusalem per Rev.21:2, 9, & 10.
Rev 18:7
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
KJV
That's about Jerusalem with the beast in power during the tribulation. She says she sits as a queen, and is NOT a widow. It means she is already MARRIED! But to whom in that time? To the coming fake Christ.
Being married already before Jesus comes for the Wedding means falling away to marry another in His place. It mean having played the Harlot against her True Husband.
Folks, if you aren't understanding these kind of parables written in God's Word, then you're missing out on a lot of things in God's Word where He seals in the meaning of many things in Scripture. He used these type of metaphors to make things EASIER to understand, not more difficult. They are ideas we all... can relate to.
Too many Churches today are too good to cover some of these spiritual metaphors God gave in His Word, especially ideas about a prostitute or harlot or adulteress God used in the false worship sense with straying away from Him to worship another, or worship something else. We've all seen it; a wife straying from her husband to commit adultery with another, or a virgin betrothed to be married not waiting and instead comes up pregnant by another. Because those are awful things in one's life and we all probably heard or know someone those things happened to, we are familiar well enough with the idea, and God uses that to His advantage with applying those things in the spiritual sense with falling away from Him to worship another in His place.
Rev 18:7
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
KJV
That's about Jerusalem with the beast in power during the tribulation. She says she sits as a queen, and is NOT a widow. It means she is already MARRIED! But to whom in that time? To the coming fake Christ.
Being married already before Jesus comes for the Wedding means falling away to marry another in His place. It mean having played the Harlot against her True Husband.
Folks, if you aren't understanding these kind of parables written in God's Word, then you're missing out on a lot of things in God's Word where He seals in the meaning of many things in Scripture. He used these type of metaphors to make things EASIER to understand, not more difficult. They are ideas we all... can relate to.
Too many Churches today are too good to cover some of these spiritual metaphors God gave in His Word, especially ideas about a prostitute or harlot or adulteress God used in the false worship sense with straying away from Him to worship another, or worship something else. We've all seen it; a wife straying from her husband to commit adultery with another, or a virgin betrothed to be married not waiting and instead comes up pregnant by another. Because those are awful things in one's life and we all probably heard or know someone those things happened to, we are familiar well enough with the idea, and God uses that to His advantage with applying those things in the spiritual sense with falling away from Him to worship another in His place.
That's not the meaning of the Barren either. VIRGIN = BARREN. It's really simple. You are over-complicating it. The spiritual meaning isn't about deceived or unbelieving Jews. Instead it has a positive meaning. The Barren means that the Woman has remained a virgin spiritually for her husband. She has not been worshiping false gods.
Let's try this. There are two woman in Revelation that John compares and contrasts.
Woman #1 (GOOD, BARREN, VIRGIN, BRIDE, FEW CHILDREN, JEWS)
12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
The above is ISRAEL and her faith is in God, the Father.
Woman #2 (BAD, DESOLATE, PREGNANT, IN LABOR, HARLOT, MANY CHILDREN, NO HUSBAND, although she thinks she has a husband, MUSLIMS, ISLAM)
And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.
...‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.
Just as Isaiah and Paul used the two women comparison, so did John.
JEWS (CHILDREN OF SARAH and ISAAC, CHILDREN OF PROMISE, CHILDREN OF GOD
BARREN, VIRGIN, ONE HUSBAND, TRUE FAITH IN TRUE GOD (They missed the Messiah though)
BRIDE, FEW, WHEAT PER MAT 13, WILL BE GATHERED INTO BARN.
MUSLIMS (CHILDREN OF HAGAR), DESOLATE, CHILDREN OF CAPTIVITY, CHILDREN OF FLESH
GENTILES, UNSAVED, CHILDREN OF HARLOT, FALSE WORSHIP IN FALSE GOD, HAS NO HUSBAND
OF THE BEAST, SERVES THE BEAST, SERVES SATAN, CONDEMNED, WILL BE CONSUMED AND
TORMENTED BEFORE HOLY ANGELS FOREVER, MANY, TARES PER MAT 13, WILL BE PLUCKED OUT AND
GATHERED TO BURN - WINEPRESS OF THE WRATH OF GOD
They grow together. They look similar.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
This isn't about believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. This isn't about Apostate Christians. It is much simpler than that. If you don't understand, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree again.
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I listen to Alex Jones' take on the rapture. Boy did he get mad. A snotty smart mouth putting down the pre-trib rapture believers. He went on and on with a snot nose, snarling diatribe. I've never heard anybody on the other side of this issue get angry and obnoxiously bitter and put out toward the mid or post folks.
Ive seen this time and time again. Where does all this anger come from, this bitterness toward the pre-trib rapture crowd.
And boy you can feel it like a knife in the gut starts turning when they start spewing their version of the 'love of Jesus' on this.
What does all this mean? I wonder!
When they get all done with their haughty attitude slamming the folks, I'm trying to figure how does 'COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS' ' fits in! I'm just saying.
Ive seen this time and time again. Where does all this anger come from, this bitterness toward the pre-trib rapture crowd.
And boy you can feel it like a knife in the gut starts turning when they start spewing their version of the 'love of Jesus' on this.
What does all this mean? I wonder!
When they get all done with their haughty attitude slamming the folks, I'm trying to figure how does 'COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS' ' fits in! I'm just saying.
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I think the anger (if that's what it is) is really frustration that us post-tribbers have towards the pre-tribbers because we know that the pre-tribbers are believing the lie. The Pre-tribbers (of which I was one), speaks so often and passionately about this fantasy Pre-Trib Return of Christ which is not taught and is not found in the Bible. Rather, it is completely fabricated by putting together verse that don't go together and they fundamentally don't even understand that Israel is the subject of the Great Tribulation.
Preaching the Pre-Trib doctrine, going on TV and spewing forth this lie and predicting when Christ will return is giving all of us in the Church a bad name. We are all discredited by false predictions.
Alex Jones is a conspiracy radio show host. His normal topics are the UN and New World Order, etc. So many think that the NWO will usher in a one world gov't whereby we all share a common currency and eventually religion that we must follow under an Anti-Christ or be killed or at least can't buy or sell. I know where they get this from, from Rev 13. But this whole premise is yet another ploy by Satan to disguise what he is really doing just as the Pre-Trib Rapture is a ploy of Satan's to lull the Church to sleep. Let's face it, if you think the Rapture is going to beam you up to Heaven before the Tribulation, then you won't recognize what is happening until it's too late.
Hello Yet,
I totally agree! When one understands the destruction and resulting fatalities as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there could be no comfort to the believer if the church was to go through God's time of wrath. Also, the appearing of our Lord is referred to as "the bless hope," of which there would be none, if in fact the church was to go through the coming wrath.
Since the Lord warns all believers throughout the entire church period to be alert, to watch and always be ready for his appearing to gather us, I believe that the opposition to do so comes directly from the deceptions of Satan and the powers of darkness and that because it is the true word of God, Christ's promise to rescue those who belong to him out of the world before he begins to pour out is wrath on a Christ rejecting world.
A pre-tribber is always watching for the imminent return of the Lord, like a bride waiting for the Bridegroom who can come at any hour and without any warning. Where as a mid or post trib belief has a many signs and events that must take place before the Lord can appear, and therefore, there is no need to watch and be ready. For example, if say the post trib view were true, meaning that the church, dead and living, was to be gathered to the Lord when he returns to end the age as described in Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21, then those in Christ would know that the Lord could not return at a time when they least expect and that because there would be a whole slew of signs, namely, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and what is written in Dan.9:27 which would have to take place before the Lord could return (again, no comfort there). The believer who knows end-time events could simply follow Revelation like a road map knowing exactly which seal, trumpet and bowl was to come next. Then after they got to the 6th bowl judgment (if they were still alive by that time), they would know that, ok, according to Revelation that was the 6th bowl that just took place and so the 7th bowl is next then Christ will return.
I truly believe that the reason that the Lord's promise to rescue believers from the earth before his wrath is initiated is continually under attack, is because it is the truth.
R
RobbyEarl
Guest
It is a simple thing if one would study scripture. How God always removed or protected the righteous from destruction that he commanded. Sodom and Gomorrah are a perfect example.
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popeye
Guest
Well when they talk amongst themselves they do "get off" on the suffering thingy.
Watch them almost get drunk off their imagined folly that those satanic pretribs that have dead men from the past whispering doctrine in their ears,will fall apart at the appearance of their great boggey man that postrib s wait for.
That has eerily become their "blessed hope"
Their whole being is consumed in suffering and the hopeful failure of 1/2 of the body of Christ.
But even more bizarre is that they are oblivious of their own folly.
They hate us,plain and simple
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popeye
Guest
Certainly.
Not only that,postrib has no provision for purpose.
Time of gentiles fulfilled
Gathering of the bride
Jacobs trouble
The business in heaven
The purpose of the AC IN THOSE LEFT BEHIND
WHICH CONNECTS to why Ps 91 is voided,and power is given the ACto overcome the saints
On,and on.
Postrib is complete rabbit trail.
That is why they take the debate into microscopic dimensions
R
RobbyEarl
Guest
Post trib WHY. It makes no sense. Will God punish the wicked with the just? Will God pour out His anger on those that trust Him?