Secret Rapture

[Ukorin]

Gary, you really need to read the Word with a submissive heart.
I know you see yourself as a prophet of God to the world, but what you are saying is not in Scripture, and does not agree with Scripture.
"It is for man to die ONCE," not 7 times.

 

[Sec]

the original meaning of the Hebrew name "Jacob" is, "lived happy with his young wife" which is true. Jacob's trouble, refers to all men who are married to a young wife, or vice versa for women. Jacob's trouble is trying to keep the marriage together so that they can live together forever, as man and wife.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God

 

[Sec]

Ukorin "The Tribulation is the 1st 3.5 years of the 70th week."

False, the tribulation has been going on for 2,000 years and probably has at least another 1.500 years to go, plus a few centuries. Everything that happens in life is part of the "tribulation." Every argument, every fight, every war, every divorce, every law suite, every famine, every drought, every financial recession, every trial in the world comes from God, and affects just those who God has designed it to affect, in order to turn them into perfect spiritual images of Jesus. Life as most of the world knows it, is the "tribulation."

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
with knowledge on loan from God

 

[Ukorin]

the original meaning of the Hebrew name "Jacob" is, "lived happy with his young wife" which is true. Jacob's trouble, refers to all men who are married to a young wife, or vice versa for women. Jacob's trouble is trying to keep the marriage together so that they can live together forever, as man and wife.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God

Where's your source for that fabrication?

Jacob means: one who grabs the heel, the one who supplanted the first.
It is related to another Hebrew phrase meaning "one whom God protects", but the relation is not definitional.

 

[Sec]

Gary, you really need to read the Word with a submissive heart.
I know you see yourself as a prophet of God to the world, but what you are saying is not in Scripture, and does not agree with Scripture.
"It is for man to die ONCE," not 7 times.

that is a bad translation, because the translator did not understand it either. It means, once you're dead, then comes the judgment for how you have lived, as you live again, being done unto, as you have done to others. The seven spirits before the throne, represent the seven lives of perfection, we must go through all seven "spirits" before we can reach the throne and "spirits" is a really bad translation for a word that actually means life times.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
with knowledge on loan from God

 

[Ukorin]

Liars are found out very easily in this day and age. The internet is a liar's enemy. You can no longer lie to people and expect them to take your word for it. They just need to google your comment to see plainly whether it is a fabrication.

This is the second time I have called you out on this action.

 

[Ukorin]

that is a bad translation, because the translator did not understand it either. It means, once you're dead, then comes the judgment for how you have lived, as you live again, being done unto, as you have done to others. the seven spirits before the throne, represent the seven lives of perfection, we must go through all seven "spirits" before we can reach the throne and "spirits" is a really bad translation for a word that actually means life times.

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
with knowledge on loan from God

So where is your source?

 

[Sec]

Ukorin O.K. I'll explain it, I will start a thread called the original meanings of the Hebrew letters.

 

[Ukorin]

Ukorin O.K. I'll explain it, I will start a thread called the original meanings of the Hebrew letters.

So you just made it up? And expect us to believe you?

Were you told by an angel?

Tell us where you got the meaning for "Jacob". It doesn't take a new thread. It only takes a one sentence answer.

 

[Ukorin]

Then show me a diagram of the Hebrew, and show me how you come up with your translation, and then explain who taught you these meanings.

I will show you the Kabala, and how what you are preaching is Jewish Mysticism preached by people like Madonna.

 

[prove-all]

Re: Seven churches

The ONLY partially credible evidence for pretrib rapture comes in Revelation 3, where a specific church of a specific city is told that they will be kept from the hour of trial.

From a literal, historical, grammatical hermeneutic, how can a person apply this promise to all the Church?
This was given to a specific group (or Church Age, or geographic region, or denomination) and not to the entire whole.

Only a nonliteral, chronological, personal, hermeneutic comes up with this interpretation.

“The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches”

Christ is in the midst of those seven churches,
there was more then 7 in the mail route back then.

and where would his church be now.
the seven Church eras are not only history in Asia,

the seven churches are the seven eras from the time of Christ to the end.
why where they even in the book of revelation if not for future use.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:
for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

- this door is still open to be a pillar in his temple,
to patient saints who keep his commandments.
he will give out the spirit of knowledge
the latter rain is falling.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,

I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

- we are in this church era, the Laodiceans.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

- he will pour out the spirit of the fear of the lord.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which
I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,
and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[dcontroversal]

The ONLY partially credible evidence for pretrib rapture comes in Revelation 3, where a specific church of a specific city is told that they will be kept from the hour of trial.

From a literal, historical, grammatical hermeneutic, how can a person apply this promise to all the Church?
This was given to a specific group (or Church Age, or geographic region, or denomination) and not to the entire whole.

Only a nonliteral, chronological, personal, hermeneutic comes up with this interpretation.

Do a complete study of the word used and it simply means to preserve, hedge about, protect, guard while the Great Tribulation is decimating the rest of humanity.....Such as God has done numerous times for his people dia all ages.........so what about the other 6 churches is Asia.....there is no split rapture of the saved elect...the dead in Christ and WE which ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you lean mid or post?
I lean mid, but accept post as valid and possible (as long as the judgements do not harm Believers, as the plagues did not harm the Israelites in Egypt).

I am post tribulation pre-wrath resurrection/change which takes place at the 7th trump.....

The churches, people and or families that are faithful will be hedged about and protected by God and the churches, people and or families found under the banner of fault....represented by--->(I.E. other 6 churches of Asia), will be purified by the tribulation period which includes death, imprisonment and suffering......Revelation 14:12, 2nd thru 5th seal, heads whacked off for refusal to receive mark Little horn wearing out and making war against saints for 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days etc.

Saints=Saved in any age
Elect=Descriptive position as found in Christ I.E.--->Chosen and another term used of saved saints!

 

[SolidGround]

I am post tribulation pre-wrath resurrection/change which takes place at the 7th trump.....

The churches, people and or families that are faithful will be hedged about and protected by God and the churches, people and or families found under the banner of fault....represented by--->(I.E. other 6 churches of Asia), will be purified by the tribulation period which includes death, imprisonment and suffering......Revelation 14:12, 2nd thru 5th seal, heads whacked off for refusal to receive mark Little horn wearing out and making war against saints for 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days etc.

Saints=Saved in any age
Elect=Descriptive position as found in Christ I.E.--->Chosen and another term used of saved saints!

Well put.
I'm not as set down, but,
unlike pre trib,
I find nothing in error with the view you have presented.

Pre trib always seems to misunderstand the parable of those who are taken and those left.
They think the saved are taken! But like those in the flood, the unrighteous are taken.
I'll be damned if I'm taken with that number! (and I mean that literally, not in cursing)

 

[dcontroversal]

Well put.
I'm not as set down, but,
unlike pre trib,
I find nothing in error with the view you have presented.

Pre trib always seems to misunderstand the parable of those who are taken and those left.
They think the saved are taken! But like those in the flood, the unrighteous are taken.
I'll be damned if I'm taken with that number! (and I mean that literally, not in cursing)

Awesome and your last statement does not offend me either way you use it! HAH

 

[Hepsibah]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Now brethren concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him we ask you not to be shaken in mind or troubled either by spirit or word or by letter as if from us as though the day of the Lord had come. Let no one deceive you by any means for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed.


The above verses show that believers of Paul's time believed that the coming of Christ to gather saints to Himself will be a secret event. They were worried that Christ had come already even without their knowledge. Here Paul is not refusing the secret nature of the Lords coming but he only says that they need to watch for this one sign of the man of sin sitting in the temple of God. The Rapture would not happen before that.

 

[Hepsibah]

If Paul was refusing the secret nature of the Lords coming he would have told them that Christ's coming will be an open event witnessed by the whole world and that no one can miss noticing it.

 

[mpaper345]

The Resurrection is ONCE for Believers, and ONCE for unbelievers.
The 1st to everlasting life,
The 2nd to eternal death.

After the Resurrection/rapture, there is no more opportunity for salvation, only judgement. The Bridegroom has come, and the doors are closed. No post rapture revivals are possible.

Basicly, it will be very obvious.

The first resurrection will be for all people whose sins have been washed away by Jesus for they are all His saints,Old Testament saints that had their sins covered by the blood of bulls and goats,for when Christ came His blood washed them completely,and all New Testament saints.

After the first resurrection,there is no second resurrection of the saints to come back to get others that are left behind,for the is none left behind,for if they did not make it in the resurrection they are considered hypocrites and will not be with Jesus.

The second resurrection will be for all people whose sins were not washed away by Jesus.

1.All people who claimed Christ but were hypocritical,which they did not get caught up in the first resurrection,will not have access to heaven,which the Bible says they will complain saying did not we do this and that,but Jesus said they did not do the will of the Father.

2.All people who rejected the truth having sufficeint information to understand will not have access to heaven,and why did they not check in to it further.

3.All people who believed in a higher power that created all things,and is good for that higher power loves people,having provided food,and clothing,and shelter,for them,and they do the same to love people,and ask the higher power for forgiveness if they did anything wrong,especially at death,they should be able to have access to heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire(Revelation 20:11-15).

This is not saying they all were not found in the Lamb's book of life,but whosoever is not found in it,which means some people can be found in it.

Also it is called the Lamb's book of life that determines their fate.If all these people are doomed,which they did not make it in the first resurrection,for only the people with Jesus could be caught up in the first resurrection,then why are they judged by the Lamb's book of life,when they were not the Lamb's during the first resurrection.

If they are all doomed,why would Jesus look in the Lamb's book of life,when Jesus would already know they are not written in there.

So it is obvious that some names that did not get caught up in the first resurrection are in the Lamb's book of life,and that is because creation testifies there is a higher power,and that higher power loves people,and love is the fulfilling of the law,and they went by that belief and if they did they still did Jesus' will,to love people,so they will be with Him.

God is a loving God and will not condemn someone who has not had the opportunity to hear the truth,and creation testifies that there is a higher power and loves people,so if they live by that they are Jesus' saints,and His blood will cleanse them at that time,if it did not already cleanse them before that,because Jesus already knows if they are right,but they could not be with Jesus at the first resurrection only because they never heard of Him.

 

[Yet]

2Tim. 2:17-18 And their word will eat as does a cancer, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, over throwing the faith of some.

Paul could have expounded here to rescue those who were afraid they missed the rapture by stating that the great tribulation must occur before 'we are caught up', but he did not mention it. He allowed the belief of a secret rapture to stay in place.

Matt. 24 dealt with the invading armies of Titus which was judgement on the Jews. End time prophecies as well. This does not negate the fact that Paul did not say a secret rapture was out of the question.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I know a lot of people believe that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church. For the moment, let's set aside when this event will happen, pre trib., mid trib. or post trib. or even if there is a rapture at all. For this thread please limit it to whether this event is secret or not where people left behind when the church would be taken up don't know what happened.

Can people who believe it is a secret event where no one left behind will know what happened as portrayed in several popular movies and also that has been taught from the pulpit by some pastors please give us some Bible passages that show specifically it is a secret event?


Again, this topic is about it being a secret event where people just, 'poof' disappear and it is not about the timing of such an event. I have been hunting for information that supports the secret rapture but I have yet to find anything on it.

Hello kentapped,

The event of the resurrection and catching away of believers is not a secret event. It was given this name by those who believe in the mid and post tribulation views to discredit it. It is listed plainly in scripture as a promise from the Lord himself through Paul, who in 1 Cor.15:51-53 introduced it as a "Mystery." The promise of Christ coming to get us can be found in John 14:1-3, where the actual event is found in 1 Thes.13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53.

The reason for this controversy is the same that it has always been and that being, expositors fail to recognize the resurrection and catching away as a completely different event from that of Christ's return to the earth to end the age, for they have made them into the same event. Regarding people not knowing what has happened, I'm sure that the antichrist who will make his seven year covenant after the church is gone will have a good answer as to why all the people are missing, however, it won't be the truth.