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Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
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Persuaded
Guest
Come on wanderer, you mean you don't know? Didn't you learn about JDS at Rehma yet? The following is from hagin, "Spiritual death means separation from God. The moment Adam sinned, he was separated from God. Spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature[6] (original emphasis).
Spiritual death means having Satan’s nature — just as receiving Eternal Life means we have the nature of God in us. When Adam and Eve listened to the devil, the devil became their spiritual father and they had the devil’s nature in their spirits. That is spiritual death. . . . Man is now united with the devil.[7]
6-Kenneth E. Hagin, The Name of Jesus 1981, p31. 7-Kenneth E. Hagin, The New Birth, 1978, p.10. Don't you have those books wanderer?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hello Samuel23,
Regarding the above, you made a claim, but you didn't provide any scriptural proof to back up that claim. The problem with a mid or post tribulation gathering of the church remains the same. From right now as I write this and until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, both mid and post tribulation beliefs put the church through God's wrath, of which believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.5:9) and that because Christ rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10)
Anyone who believes that the church will go through God's wrath, is not truly trusting that we have been reconciled to God through Christ. For Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and it has therefore been satisfied. It would then be a dishonor to Jesus if the church was to go through the wrath that He already experienced on our behalf.
Jesus promised that he was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that he was going to return to gather the church to take us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places, that where He is we may be also. Paul called the gathering of the church "the blessed hope" and also said that we should comfort one another with the hope of Christ's appearing and our being gathered. Suffice to say, if believers were to go through the time of God's, it would not be a blessed hope nor would we have reason to comfort one another with those words.
The error of mid and post-trib stems from a number of false interpretations, but mainly a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. It also stems from not trusting in the promises of Christ to keep us out of that hour of tribulation.
Well, our gathering certainly would not be a blessed hope nor would we have reason to comfort one another with the hope of being gathered, if the church first had to go through the coming wrath of God.
Come on wanderer, you mean you don't know? Didn't you learn about JDS at Rehma yet? The following is from hagin, "Spiritual death means separation from God. The moment Adam sinned, he was separated from God. Spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature[6] (original emphasis).
Spiritual death means having Satan’s nature — just as receiving Eternal Life means we have the nature of God in us. When Adam and Eve listened to the devil, the devil became their spiritual father and they had the devil’s nature in their spirits. That is spiritual death. . . . Man is now united with the devil.[7]
6-Kenneth E. Hagin, The Name of Jesus 1981, p31. 7-Kenneth E. Hagin, The New Birth, 1978, p.10. Don't you have those books wanderer?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
get out of here you troll and stop following me....
btw how is that off? you are just starting to look silly.
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
Just because the internet says Darby started it doesn't make it so...I gave you actual research, you gave me Wikipedia...smh...
jesus never taught a post trib rapture...Another lie...Give me any scripture that indicates that the New Testament church believed in a post-trib rapture, please...There is also no post-trib described in the Bible anywhere...It does however say many times we won't be here for god's wrath upon the earth...here are a few of them...
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
9 For *God hath not appointed us to wrath,* but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, *I also will keep thee “from” the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.*
Romans 5:9 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, *we shall be saved from wrath through him.*
Luke 21:36 (KJV)
36 Watch ye therefore, and *pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy “to escape” all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man.
AND you neglected to address the references I gave you from the early church father teaching pre-trib...
Ok, Jesus described the tribulation that the church would go through in Matt 24 and Mark 13. It is not the time of God's wrath but rather the time of Satan's wrath. If you read these places in the scripture you will notice that Jesus said it would be a time of great persecution against those who believe in Jesus Christ. God does not persecute those who believe in Jesus Christ but Satan does. Also by saying that the tribulation would be a time of great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ; Jesus defined that time as something Christians would go through. The idea of a pre-trib rapture is based entirely on the concept that Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a different rapture then the one Jesus gave the apostles. It can easily by proven that Paul wrote of the same rapture as Jesus did, therefore it would be post-trib and that would void out the idea of a pre-trib rapture.
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
This passage clearly says we meet Jesus in the clouds/the air...When Jesus returns at his second coming, he descends to the earth on the Mount of Olives...two different events...
Plus there are several verses that do say we won't be here for God's wrath, which is the tribulation...
here are a few of them...
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
9 For *God hath not appointed us to wrath,* but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, *I also will keep thee “from” the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.*
Romans 5:9 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, *we shall be saved from wrath through him.*
Luke 21:36 (KJV)
36 Watch ye therefore, and *pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy “to escape” all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man.
Common sense tells you that if we aren't here for God's wrath, we aren't here for the tribulation...
You are presenting speculation from persons and personal meanings place on scriptures of your choosing. Jesus described the tribulation in Matt24 and Mark 13, it is a time of great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ...that could not be the wrath of God but rather the wrath of Satan.
It is not hard to think this thing out. The idea of a pre-trib rapture is based entirely on the concept that Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a different return then the return Jesus gave the apostles. Now the post-trib return that Jesus gave to the church was taught from day one to the church. So the church before Paul wrote the Thess letters, believed in a post-trib rapture that had been taught them by the apostles who had been taught it by Jesus. So years later when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the post-trib rapture that the church already believed in. When you compare the description Jesus gave of His return with the description Paul gave of Jesus return it is easy to see that they are one and the same.
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
Show me where the bible refers to the tribulation as "satan's wrath"?
Right here it says it's God's wrath, not satan's...This is spoken right after the 6th seal is broken, at the beginning of the tribulation...
Revelation 6:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the "wrath of the Lamb":
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Plus, regarding the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, ask yourself, "Who is Jesus speaking to?" The Jews, who will be here during the tribulation...not to the church..
SO GO AHEAD..."EASILY PROVE" YOUR REMARKS... "I" AM...AND "I'M" USING SCRIPTURE AS WRITTEN, NOT AS INTERPRETTED, TO MAKE :my" POINTS......
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
I'VE GIVEN YOU PLENTY TO WORK WITH HERE, SO DON'T JUST IGNORE MY POINTS IN THE HOPES THAT THEY'LL JUST GO AWAY...
AND WHERE IS YOUR REBUTTAL OF MY EARLY CHURCH FATHERS REFERENCES TEACHING PRE-TRIB BACK FROM THE 1ST CENTURY A.D.??????
AND WHERE IS YOUR REBUTTAL OF MY EARLY CHURCH FATHERS REFERENCES TEACHING PRE-TRIB BACK FROM THE 1ST CENTURY A.D.??????
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
SO YOU'RE UPSET THAT I USE RELEVENT SCRIPTURES TO MAKE MY POINT??? LOL!!!
AND AGAIN THE REFERENCES YOU GIVE RELATE TO ISRAEL, NOT THE CHURCH...YOU HAVE TO PROPERLY APPLY THEM TO THE CONTEXT, NOT JUST QUOTE SCRIPTURE THAT IS IRRELEVENT TO THE TOPIC AT HAND...SMH
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
STILL WAITING ON THAT SCRIPTURE REFERENCE THAT SAYS THAT "SATAN'S WRATH" IS THE TRIBULATION??? I GAVE YOU ONE THAT SAYS IT'S "THE WRATH OF THE LAMB"...
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
NOOOO...JESUS DESCRIBED THE WRATH THAT ISRAEL WILL GO THROUGH, NOT THE CHURCH...AS I'VE SHOWN YOU SEVERAL TIMES NOW IN SCRIPTURE...
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FRANKMOON1934
Guest
Perhaps that was a bit out of line? There are more supporters of the scriptural pre tribulation harpadzo than just Popeye, and it doesn't help to make jabs at people who are not here to reply back or defend themselves.