Scriptural Authority .
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Maybe a few comparative translations will help...
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23-KJV
And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God’s sons). Romans 8:23-AMP
And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23-ESV
Not only the world, but we also ·have been waiting with pain inside us [groan within ourselves]. We have the Spirit as the ·first part of God’s promise [firstfruits; as the first crops confirmed the future harvest, so the Spirit’s presence confirms believers’ final salvation]. So we are [eagerly] waiting for ·God to finish making us his own children [our adoption], which means ·our bodies will be made free [the redemption of our bodies]. Romans 8:23-EXB
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23-NASB
Notice, it is us who are waiting the adoption, not God. With God, it is a done deal.
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
It's a concerted effort to throw away the fathers and the creeds, and anything to do with the ancient church so they can make up stuff and mislead folks.
I can assure you that Polycarp, or Ireneaus, or justin Martyr full well understood what the Apostles teachings were.
It's just too bad many of TCF had their own differences, unlike the picture the RCC likes to paint.
Amen!
How great is it having 3 of John's own Chosen Disciples to pass on more insight for us to glean from?
We accept Peter's Disciple Mark when all he did was take Peter's spoken Hebrew and wrote it down in Greek as we now know as the Gospel of Mark.
Look at Paul's Disciple's we accept?
But we will deny John's Disciples because they prove some modern Doctrines today are 100% False.
It's 100% crooked!
I actually trust John's Disciples more because Jesus called him [Beloved]. He loved all His Disciples, but John had a more special place and special purpose for Yeshua. And we can see what John escapes compared to the others. Christ ensured that John and his Disciples would be at the turn of the Century to keep the fires hot. And today's scholars want to stomp John's Disciples words into the ground. Some of These scholars have to be Demon Possessed and the Believers around them ain't too hot for God to not notice!
We are waiting for the adoption as the verse says . This completely refutes the idea that Adoption happens at conversion . Until THE adoption we recieve the earnest . Which is the SPIRIT Of ! the adoption ..That simply means we receive the Guarantee that our Adoption will take place ( future ) . This is what Eph 1.5 is referring to . The bible does not say lost people are predestined to conversion . This is what 95% of Christians mess up on .
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
Preach it brother. I'm with ya. Just because it isn't canonized scripture does not mean that their writings aren't valuable. Modern churches will read Rick Warren, but not even one of the church fathers.
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
We all understand that they didn't agree on everything exactly. But they put the essentials down on paper and called them creeds, and confessions of faith. I'm not a Romanist. I'm Lutheran. The reformation happened for a reason, and the Pope is a mess.
I've noticed so many christian teachers on youtube have to have a library of books in the background to make sure we see how knowledgeable they are .
B
Blackpowderduelist
Guest
The problem is that Steven Connelly's "The God Bet" or Rick Warren's "purpose drivel what ever" is a top seller, and rated a "must read" for Christians, but not "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus of Lyons.
I've been through the Lutheran Synods, enough to be aware of major disagreements amongst themselves.
Even Luther in his writings exposed some of the 'Fathers' Of course, it depends on which Luther we are referring to, the pre 1517, the pre 1530 or post 1540. It makes a difference as it does in all our temporal, finite lives.
yes we'll listen to 'money matters' and read '5 love languages' before we'll pick up anything by A.W. Pink or Tertullian.
we're a source of personal comfort and platitudes instead of a source of wisdom. we try to find ourselves in the Bible instead of trying to find Christ.
I had a neighbor that was Mormon. One day wanted to talk about some verses so I go over and I was showing in the word and he goes and brings back ALL theses books. I asked "did Mormons write those?" He said yes. Well nothing else to talk about. I never then or now ever wanted to "destroy" what someone personally believes. No offense for I can say this because if it was meant a different way then they would have said it for they know what they are talking about.
In so many verses "I personally believe" or the like is left out. I love what this late preacher most would know. He said so many times "don't take my words for it. You search you pray you find this out for your self". Truth WHY should anyone believe your truth over say Calvinists? WHY are you right? We can find many things said or quoted that is someone's own definition of this or that verse.
Not like someone saying Jesus is not the only way to the Father for we can come right back with Chapter and verse of Christ saying He is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. Nothing else added is "what Christ was saying here is".
So in truth just what are you really saying?
Are they here? At some point each has to know Jesus is the only way and that He is real. And then everything you believe can you find it in His word with out thinking about ANYONE else and what they personally believe?
We speak words of life. Always for the good always pointing to Him always making sure WE are not seen and only Him.
Predestination can be very hard for some to understand. When one reads "before the foundation of the world". Knowing God is NOW in the past and God is now and God is in the future. I would always make sure I back that up with "well what I personally believe" then the rest. For I am not right only He is.. cheers.. JESUS is lord.. believe He came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day and is at the right hand of the Father and the only way to the Father? THATS what matters. Focus on HIM then the rest
In so many verses "I personally believe" or the like is left out. I love what this late preacher most would know. He said so many times "don't take my words for it. You search you pray you find this out for your self". Truth WHY should anyone believe your truth over say Calvinists? WHY are you right? We can find many things said or quoted that is someone's own definition of this or that verse.
Not like someone saying Jesus is not the only way to the Father for we can come right back with Chapter and verse of Christ saying He is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. Nothing else added is "what Christ was saying here is".
So in truth just what are you really saying?
Are they here? At some point each has to know Jesus is the only way and that He is real. And then everything you believe can you find it in His word with out thinking about ANYONE else and what they personally believe?We speak words of life. Always for the good always pointing to Him always making sure WE are not seen and only Him.
Predestination can be very hard for some to understand. When one reads "before the foundation of the world". Knowing God is NOW in the past and God is now and God is in the future. I would always make sure I back that up with "well what I personally believe" then the rest. For I am not right only He is.. cheers.. JESUS is lord.. believe He came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day and is at the right hand of the Father and the only way to the Father? THATS what matters. Focus on HIM then the rest