Scriptural Authority .

[Blackpowderduelist]

I think that is the point where we differ.

That's ok. That's not a hill to die on.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Don't forget that Christ also said He is [sending] a {great Delusion} and that many will FALL AWAY!
Is that Homosexuality being accepted and allowed to lead the Church, like now + other false idealism's?

I think it's false doctrine taught in the church,

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

The unsaved reject God all along since they are at enmity with Him. However, do you think an unsaved person can humble himself and receive God's grace then?

I think that, what God does is send us with the truth to them and that truth is inhabited by the Holy Spirit, who does the work of grace; ie conviction of sin and convincing of Christ. That by this grace a man can then believe, but also can harden himself against and reject.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

When an evangelist comes to town and holds his big meeting, is he trying to manipulate people's will by convincing them to believe and to act on it?
I'm thinking of Charles Finney and the revivalist/great awakening movement. About altar calls and emotional sermons designed to evoke particular responses from the audience. Is it right? And who is doing the convincing?

And i am thinking how we pray for someone who is not saved, asking that they become a believer - aren't we asking God to change their will and cause them to believe when we pray for them?

I despise the revivalist movement. They strum emotions and get someone to answer an alter call but that's it a manipulated emotional response which may not actually be belief.
More that God will convince them of the truth so that they believe.
I don't have any positive out look on the human will. It is an agent of rejection, the gates of hell if you will.

 

[1ofthem]

I think that many people are in this category, that they know, they believe, and they still reject the truth.

But isn't there a difference between knowing you should do something but not doing it, and not even knowing in the first place?
So there is a difference between saying "I think the Bible is fairy tales and people made-up god, there is no such thing" versus saying "I really think there is a god, even Jesus, but I don't care"

Maybe I think eating activated charcoal isn't good for me, so I don't. Or maybe I do think it's good for me but I choose not to - - those are two different scenarios.

What getting at is that if it's like Jesus Himself explicitly said, that no one knows God except who God chooses to reveal Himself to, then it's not necessarily the case that salvation comes down to an individuals absolutely free choice. A person doesn't have that choice unless God first chooses to open their ear to hear and their heart to understand the gospel.

I get what you are saying and I agree that it takes drawing and convicting from God to get saved. However, I believe that God gives everyone a chance and draws everyone at some point in their life. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. The Holy Ghost also convicts the world of sin. We can accept or reject his calling. No one will have an excuse if they reject him.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I get what you are saying and I agree that it takes drawing and convicting from God to get saved. However, I believe that God gives everyone a chance and draws everyone at some point in their life. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. The Holy Ghost also convicts the world of sin. We can accept or reject his calling. No one will have an excuse if they reject him.

Agreed that Jesus by the Holy Spirit draws all men. Which we could get into prevenient Grace here if you like. Because He was lifted up and nailed to a cross and died for sins, as Peter said not only ours but the sins of the world

 

[crossnote]

Rom 8.23 is critical to the discussion, and completely destroys the idea that Predestination is about sinners to conversion.And most Armins agree with Calvinism that Predestination took place before they were born. The only difference is they think its according to God seeing that they would believe . This is just an inconsistent attempt to move away from the consequences of the system Arminaism came from . Calvinism.

Ok here is Rom 8:23...

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)

That seems to be speaking in terms of when we receive our new bodies. I don't see how it destroys any argument from either side.

 

[KingdomBrat]

I think it's false doctrine taught in the church,

Theoretically speaking then, since we know this [DELUSION] is for the "Last Days," that means any Doctrine within 300 years old could be looked at upon as a Last Day Delusional False Doctrine. Very much like the HERETIC DARBY and his [pre-trib Rapture]. Very much like the Prosperity Doctrine. Very much like the [NAME IT AND CLAIM IT] Doctrine. Very much like Homosexuality accepted in the Church. Very much like these [SEEKER FRIENDLY] Churches and Doctrine. Very much like the [NEW AGE] Doctrine. Very much like the [UNIVERSALISM] Doctrine. And there's plenty more I just am not adding because you get the gist.

 

[throughfaith]

Ok here is Rom 8:23...

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23)

That seems to be speaking in terms of when we receive our new bodies. I don't see how it destroys any argument from either side.

Because that shows WHAT the Adoption IS . Its not the idea that God adopts us at conversion ..As romantic as some denominations and theologians want to tell us .

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Theoretically speaking then, since we know this [DELUSION] is for the "Last Days," that means any Doctrine within 300 years old could be looked at upon as a Last Day Delusional False Doctrine. Very much like the HERETIC DARBY and his [pre-trib Rapture]. Very much like the Prosperity Doctrine. Very much like the [NAME IT AND CLAIM IT] Doctrine. Very much like Homosexuality accepted in the Church. Very much like these [SEEKER FRIENDLY] Churches and Doctrine. Very much like the [NEW AGE] Doctrine. Very much like the [UNIVERSALISM] Doctrine. And there's plenty more I just am not adding because you get the gist.

We are on the same page on this stuff. That's why you see me refer to the church fathers so frequently.

 

[throughfaith]

Theoretically speaking then, since we know this [DELUSION] is for the "Last Days," that means any Doctrine within 300 years old could be looked at upon as a Last Day Delusional False Doctrine. Very much like the HERETIC DARBY and his [pre-trib Rapture]. Very much like the Prosperity Doctrine. Very much like the [NAME IT AND CLAIM IT] Doctrine. Very much like Homosexuality accepted in the Church. Very much like these [SEEKER FRIENDLY] Churches and Doctrine. Very much like the [NEW AGE] Doctrine. Very much like the [UNIVERSALISM] Doctrine. And there's plenty more I just am not adding because you get the gist.

Folks always trying to track someone to a 'boogeyman '. Or another paradigm. Because they are following one, they assume everyone else MUST be following a man , a system or another paradigm also. The cry " the early church fathers " This and " no believed this until ...." That.

 

[KingdomBrat]

We are on the same page on this stuff. That's why you see me refer to the church fathers so frequently.

It amazes me that modern day scholars would go out of their way to refute what the Church Fathers presented. But they want to accept their Views towards God and their Creeds. Today's scholars are as far from the [TRUTH] as it can possibly get, in my opinion! I'll base my Salvation on the interpretation of the Church Fathers any day over a modern scholar within past 250 years!

 

[KingdomBrat]

When have the accounts of 3 men, these men whom John the Apostle chose as his own Disciples, are denied by modern day scholars, I'll beg the government to throw down right this very second a [Woodrow Wilson] dollar bill equaling 100 grand these scholars ain't going to Heaven!

 

[throughfaith]

It amazes me that modern day scholars would go out of their way to refute what the Church Fathers presented. But they want to accept their Views towards God and their Creeds. Today's scholars are as far from the [TRUTH] as it can possibly get, in my opinion! I'll base my Salvation on the interpretation of the Church Fathers any day over a modern scholar within past 250 years!

Shouldn't it be on the bible ? The church fathers said some true things and false..The bible is never false.

 

[throughfaith]

When have the accounts of 3 men, these men whom John the Apostle chose as his own Disciples, are denied by modern day scholars, I'll beg the government to throw down right this very second a a [Woodrow Wilson] dollar bill equaling 100 grand these scholars ain't going to Heaven!

Yes Augustine came along in the 4th century, and here we are today, modern day scholars are still perpetuating his teachings. This would be the MAJORITY of the scholars today.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Shouldn't it be on the bible ? The church fathers said some true things and false..The bible is never false.

I can verify the Bible with the Church Fathers nearly 95% of time vs opinions of modern day scholars.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Yes Augustine came along in the 4th century, and here we are today, modern day scholars are still perpetuating his teachings. This would be the MAJORITY of the scholars today.

I'm discussing Polycarp, Ireneaus, and Papias.

 

[throughfaith]

I can verify the Bible with the Church Fathers nearly 95% of time vs opinions of modern day scholars.

That is essentially . meaningless ,because 95 % of folks are effected by a forth century theologian called Augustine .

 

[throughfaith]

I'm discussing Polycarp, Ireneaus, and Papias.

They taught some stuff that s ok . But the bible is the word Of God, not these men .

 

[KingdomBrat]

When Yeshua chose Judas He did it knowing this is who will later betray Him. I don't think John ever worried about Polycarp, Ireneaus, Papias doing something stupid like using him to give [false information]. But today's scholars deny these 3 who claim John taught them Matthew was first written in Hebrew around early 40 A.D. I think a baseball bat and a few guidos would correct these lying modern scholars quite well actually!