Saved by Water
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wow, I'm shocked, this is what we Pentecostals minster get blamed for saying and teaching this foolishness. I have never had to teach a person to speak in tongues or have them respect what I have said. I have led people to Jesus God has saved them and I have prayed with people laid hands on them and seen God fill them without any coaching or having to demonstrate. The Holy Spirit doesn't need help He is very capable to empower those who are ready for Him to come upon them.
I know you do and that's why I mentioned to you in the other thread about this one.
I would avoid anything Pentecostal.
Sad thing is when I was told this it was not by my church leadership.
I was in a Baptist church, ELIM Baptist (which btw when I told them I was baptised by sprinkling they told that was not a proper baptism and I needed to dunked, I did that but it wasn't a Biggie for me)
The church I was in signed up to a weekly conference called Stoneleigh which I went to.
Some great preachers at the time.
Terry Virgo ( Started NFI denomination of which I now attend and C J Mahayney were preaching, btw the CJ, loved his talks)
Anyway at the end of one night there was a call to go forward if you needed prayer.
I went forward and as always there are designated people who would come alongside and talk with and ask what the problem is or what do you need prayer for.
I went forward and asked for prayer because I felt a disconnect with God.
That's where the tongues thing came in.
S
SophieT
Guest
this thread was started with the express purpose of promoting the Oneness doctrine with their beliefs of regenerational baptism and if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved
this helps no one and probably hurts those who do not have a grasp on what scripture really says because they may be a new Christian or another reason
for those of us who do know that the above doctrines are not in the Bible, it is hurtful and ridiculous to read some of the posts by the op who disregards scripture and refuses to answer direct questions
51 pages of indirect influence of the Oneness doctrine.
this helps no one and probably hurts those who do not have a grasp on what scripture really says because they may be a new Christian or another reason
for those of us who do know that the above doctrines are not in the Bible, it is hurtful and ridiculous to read some of the posts by the op who disregards scripture and refuses to answer direct questions
51 pages of indirect influence of the Oneness doctrine.
Tongues to not save us Jesus did. that is one of those errors like Hyper grace and unconditional election
If this is talking about speaking in tongues and it says you cannot tell where it comes from, then it doesn’t provide evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. If you don’t know where it is coming from then no one would know who did it.
S
SophieT
Guest
Tongues to not save us Jesus did. that is one of those errors like Hyper grace and unconditional election
it's almost funny when u think about it
tongues do not save...in fact, according to the Bible, the tongue can set the world on fire
(yes I know not the same tongue...just a play on words)
and don't get me started on unconditional election
okit's almost funny when u think about it
tongues do not save...in fact, according to the Bible, the tongue can set the world on fire
(yes I know not the same tongue...just a play on words)
and don't get me started on unconditional election
Truth is established by 2-3 scriptures indicating the same thing. All scriptures relevant to receiving the Holy Spirit indicate there's outward evidence; speaking in tongues. (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19)and ? you have experienced both is not change the word of God
Paul states in Romans that only those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them are children of God. (Romans 8:9)
Paul also stated in 1 Cor 14:2 that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God. Speaking in tongues is the believer's spirit speaking directly to God. And since God is a Spirit it is easy to see how this reality is what Paul refers to in Romans 8:16. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
You say that you experienced neither. But you did in fact speak in tongues during prayer as you stated. And praise God that is exactly what happens when one initially receives the Holy Ghost. Afterward, at times while in prayer tongues will begin to flow. That is when God is speaking directly to your spirit about things you don't even know you or someone else needs. In the spiritual realm you are speaking things that are a mystery on a conscience level as Paul explains in 1 Cor. 14:2 below:
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor 14:2
Actually the thread was begun to discuss what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 3:20-21. And, has since branched out to other topics.
1 Peter 3:20-21
“...God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
And for the record, I do answer questions using the word. And according to scripture that is proper. Why people are offended by that is interesting. Paul said, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." 2 Tim 4:2-5
As I've said many times, people's and any denomination's beliefs are not what is important. What is, is what the word specifically states. People are free to accept or reject the meaning of the scripture provided.
Those gathered in the upper room had no idea from what direction the Spirit of God came and entered into their physical bodies. However, the sound produced after the Holy Ghost entered them gave evidence that He had indeed arrived.
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4
Aren't those spirit that peep an utter?I know making those sounds can be meditative.but what about transparency?
I find it interesting that God chose to, for His own purposes, use something man has no ability to tame. (James 3) Speaking in tongues is the result of God's Spirit connecting with man's spirit. This form of interaction bypasses man's ideas, thoughts, etc. One's willingness to give God total control is what results in putting out the "fires" set, or those that could be, through the use of the carnal tongue.it's almost funny when u think about it
tongues do not save...in fact, according to the Bible, the tongue can set the world on fire
(yes I know not the same tongue...just a play on words)
and don't get me started on unconditional election
Also relevant to the topic is stated in Proverbs 18:21. "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof." Of course this pertains to both words spoken naturally and those prompted by the Spirit.
You have been taught a doctrinal position and you are not even clear in that you have been taught.
You do, think one must speak in tongue to be saved as you have said when asked if you do, you have said :
"Truth is established by 2-3 scriptures indicating the same thing"
The problem with your understanding is, Acts chapter 2:41
says "41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
There is no mention of the three thousand speaking in tongues after they were or before there saved?
you are assuming it was. Where the scripture is silent we must remain silent.
Also, you don't understand 1corthians chapter 14:2 because you are only picking out a few verses that support your doctrinal position just like the cessationist do who are saying the gifts are not for today.
The context of verse 14:2 starts in chapter 12 at verse 3 and is through all the chapters of 12 through 14. Known as unit chapters.
you have developed a pretext out of the context. This is an error and inappropriate bible interpretation.
tongues in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 has already been saying is a gift to the church in chapter 12 as it is listed and verse one of chapter 14 which you left out. The speaking to God and not to men in chapter 14:2
verse one says "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. "
Did you fail to provide the whole quote of verse 2 in chapter 14 why?
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Paul very clearly says how tongues are to be used yet he said not tongues but Prophesying is more effective for the edification of the church unless there is an interpretation.
To says tongues is needed to be saved would not make sense when Paul said Prophesying is what he would want all to do more than speaking in tongues. Why did he say this IF tongues are confirmation of salvation over Prophesying as he said do?
it is because none of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for salvation they are gifts to the church AS it states in Chapters 12 and 14.
Tongues is not for salvation it is a gift of the Holy Spirit which HE distributes as HE sees to those who are already saved.
All the gifts are useless if there is no relationship with Christ first and maturity This is very clear as paul said in verses one to three of chapter 12 before listing the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
here is the standard before the gifts can be used :
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
These verses are the discernment and introduction of paul's teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit before he even mentioned tongues. The Holy Spirit did not even mention through Paul that tongues is needed to be saved nowhere.
This is an error in thinking.
BillG
So I prayed in tongues but it was not forced but just happened but weirdly I was not aware I was doing it.
Isa 8:19
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
The following is what I said:
Truth is established by 2-3 scriptures indicating the same thing. All scriptures relevant to receiving the Holy Spirit indicate there's outward evidence; speaking in tongues. (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19)
The actual scripture verses in the chapters presented are as follows: Acts 2:1-4, 10:44-48, 19:1-6. These records specifically show people speaking in unknown tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost.
The Samaritans experience does not make specific mention of speaking in tongues. However, it is implied. First consider that they heard and believed the message and submitted to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Even so, Philip knew they had not received the Holy Ghost. How did Philip know this? What evidence was missing?
Acts 8:12-18
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,”
You pointed out Acts 2:41. That verse doesn't pertain to receiving the Holy Ghost. It states they were baptized, This indicating they believed and obeyed Paul's command that everyone submit to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. As you well know many verses highlight certain points and are not to be seen as excluding others. An example would be that all are required to repent, yet many scriptures fail to include that point.