Saved by faith alone?

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But grammatically and theologically, faith and obedience are distinct.

Faith is the means by which we receive God’s grace — not a meritorious work we perform.
Obedience is the fruit or evidence that such faith is real.
Paul carefully separates the two to preserve grace:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,​

his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5​

So while true faith obeys, faith itself is not defined as obedience — it’s trust in God that produces obedience.

Faith obeys; obedience flows from faith.​

They are inseparable in practice, but not identical in essence.​

Faith saves apart from works, yet never remains without works.​

Grace and Peace

I disagree in the sense I use the term disobedient, which is disbelieving and unpersuadeable. Faith is contrasted with disobedience, which logically means faith is obedience.

Therefore unto you which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 1 Peter 2:7​

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Disobedient
G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v.
1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely).

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16​

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Disobedient
G545 ἀπειθής apeithes (a-pei-thees') adj.
1. unpersuadable, i.e. contumacious.

​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Again, you're confusing justification with salvation. Justification by itself (alone) doesn't save.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faith may be associated with obedience, but it is not obedience. Faith is a matter of what one believes in their hearts. Obedience is a matter of performing what one believes, which is a function of the will. Conflating the two is simply an attempt to make works an aspect of salvation. Works play no part in the salvation of an individual.

Of course they do. Do works of the flesh and you will die. Do works of the spirit and you will live.

 

[pinebeach]

What I meant is that when a believer is walking in the Spirit, the works that flow from that life are His, not ours — because they’re the result of His power and will, not self-effort.
“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13)

Well that sounds about right and I agree. Thanks. I think I might have had you confused with another poster. Sorry.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, you're confusing justification with salvation. Justification by itself (alone) doesn't save.

The apostle Paul says otherwise. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Does that sound like still not saved to you? Are you confusing justification with glorification?

 

[Cameron143]

Of course they do. Do works of the flesh and you will die. Do works of the spirit and you will live.

No they don't. We are saved by grace; not works.

To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace...Romans 8:6.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you...Romans 8:9.

Unless you believe we have the Spirit one minute and don't whenever we fall short, we are not in the flesh. We may be carnally minded at times, and the quality of life in Christ suffers, but we are not ever not in Christ.
No where are works mentioned.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The apostle Paul says otherwise. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Does that sound like still not saved to you? Are you confusing justification with glorification?

It's the first step of salvation. We were reconciled (made at peace with God) through Christ's death and will be saved in his life. Remaining in Christ requires walking in the spirit to keep our vessels clean, holy and unspotted from the world. That's our work

For if being enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his son, how much more having been reconciled, we will be saved in his life. Romans 5:10​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No they don't. We are saved by grace; not works.

To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace...Romans 8:6.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you...Romans 8:9.

Unless you believe we have the Spirit one minute and don't whenever we fall short, we are not in the flesh. We may be carnally minded at times, and the quality of life in Christ suffers, but we are not ever not in Christ.
No where are works mentioned.

Grace doesn't preclude works of the spirit, ie, works we do in obedience to the spirit

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What I meant is that when a believer is walking in the Spirit, the works that flow from that life are His, not ours — because they’re the result of His power and will, not self-effort.

When you have the temptation to do something naughty, but refrain from doing so out of obedience to the spirit, that's not God doing his work through you, but you doing his work in obedience to his spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

Grace doesn't preclude works of the spirit, ie, works we do in obedience to the spirit

Grace is the reason we obey rather than disobey. But that only comes as a result of the indwelling Spirit. No one does works of the Spirit apart from the Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

When you have the temptation to do something naughty, but refrain from doing so out of obedience to the spirit, that's not God doing his work through you, but you doing his work in obedience to his spirit.

John 15:5...apart from me ye can do nothing...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Grace is the reason we obey rather than disobey. But that only comes as a result of the indwelling Spirit. No one does works of the Spirit apart from the Spirit.

If I obey the written word which was communicated by the spirit, then that is obeying the spirit. It has nothing to do with grace, but with my will to not sin against God. Tempted to lie and I don't because I want to do what the spirit tells me through the word is right is a work done in the spirit of God. I can ask for grace to help me if need be.

 

[mailmandan]

It's the first step of salvation. We were reconciled (made at peace with God) through Christ's death and will be saved in his life. Remaining in Christ requires walking in the spirit to keep our vessels clean, holy and unspotted from the world. That's our work

For if being enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his son, how much more having been reconciled, we will be saved in his life. Romans 5:10​

There 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by those who promote salvation by works.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

In 2 Corinthians 1:10, we read, "who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us". This speaks of past, present, and future deliverance.

Justification is not probation and ongoing sanctification is not "type two works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[Cameron143]

If I obey the written word which was communicated by the spirit, then that is obeying the spirit. It has nothing to do with grace, but with my will to not sin against God. Tempted to lie and I don't because I want to do what the spirit tells me through the word is right is a work done in the spirit of God. I can ask for grace to help me if need be.

You don't understand grace or what it is to walk in the Spirit. Neither do you understand what it is to abide in Christ. Those yoked with Christ aren't doing anything in their own strength, but are enabled to obey in His strength. Accomplishing things through the exercise of our wills is not walking in the Spirit. That's what the Pharisees did. They had a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. Rather, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling knowing that God is working in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure.

We were never made to or meant to live independently from God. Our satisfaction can only be found in Christ our great Shepherd. You don't seem to have found the rest Jesus offers to those who submit to Him. His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and He gives rest, not work.

 

[pinebeach]

It's the first step of salvation. We were reconciled (made at peace with God) through Christ's death and will be saved in his life. Remaining in Christ requires walking in the spirit to keep our vessels clean, holy and unspotted from the world. That's our work

Going to but in here. Are you saying we keep ourselves in Christ and that is what you call work?

 

[studier]

If obedience is not works then what is it? We are commanded to love one another (John 13:34) and if we obey that command by providing clothes and food to a brother or sister in need, wasn't that a work? James says it is. (James 2:15-16)

Where does faith reside in men Rom10:10? Where does obedience/submission reside in men Rom6:17? These 2 words are functionally synonymous when it comes to biblical pistis. They are first internal together. They are lived out in good works. Thus the formula: faith/obedience + good works.

The main 2 words used for obedience are hupakouo (literally to hear under) and peitho (to be persuaded). These speak of an inner submission to what's heard and an inner submissive alignment. Pistis (faith) is rooted in peitho.

We're dealing with words that first deal with the inner man.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Going to but in here. Are you saying we keep ourselves in Christ and that is what you call work?

No we don't keep ourselves in Christ positionally; the covenant takes care of that. But we do choose to walk in him or not. Will a person who is in Christ, but doesn't walk in Christ be saved? That's God's call, but I prefer to heed to his warning that those who don't do the will of God won't enter the kingdom of God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You don't understand grace or what it is to walk in the Spirit. Neither do you understand what it is to abide in Christ. Those yoked with Christ aren't doing anything in their own strength, but are enabled to obey in His strength. Accomplishing things through the exercise of our wills is not walking in the Spirit. That's what the Pharisees did. They had a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. Rather, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling knowing that God is working in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure.

We were never made to or meant to live independently from God. Our satisfaction can only be found in Christ our great Shepherd. You don't seem to have found the rest Jesus offers to those who submit to Him. His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and He gives rest, not work.

You're getting into the total inability thing, which I fully reject. Basically what you're saying is that if a person chooses of his own free will to not sin by stealing something, then he is not walking according to the spirit, which is just ridiculous

 

[pinebeach]

No we don't keep ourselves in Christ positionally; the covenant takes care of that. But we do choose to walk in him or not. Will a person who is in Christ, but doesn't walk in Christ be saved? That's God's call, but I prefer to heed to his warning that those who don't do the will of God won't enter the kingdom of God.

I agree we do choose how we respond and our lives shoud reflect the new life in Christ. We should all heed the warnings given by Christ. Thanks

 

[studier]

You're getting into the total inability thing

Inevitable here.