Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

My point is simply that Scripture makes a careful distinction between the root and the fruit of salvation. Works don’t contribute to being saved — they confirm that salvation has truly taken place.

Paul says,
“By grace are ye saved through faith… not of works.” (Ephesians 2:8–9)
and then immediately adds,
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” (Ephesians 2:10)

In other words, genuine faith always produces obedience — not as a condition for salvation, but as the natural outcome of it.

So when I emphasize that faith without works is dead, I’m not accusing anyone of adding works — I’m simply agreeing with James that a living faith inevitably shows itself in action, because Christ lives within it.

Grace and peace, brother.

Exactly! Well said.

 

[TrustandObey]

Are you under the impression you are providing a more mature example there?

The natural mind is incapable of understanding the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

When the Holy Spirit,Spirit of Holy God,enters those He chooses,and removes the hardening from their mind that is innate in all people, so they can then understand God's communications to them,that is regeneration.

Regenerated by the Holy Power that gives Soul and life to all people, bridged the separation that hardening,our natural worldly consciousness, knew as our everyday life and concern.
That Spiritual union is what allows us to understand the things of God. Because it is God teaching us his words.

We are born again in the Spirit of understanding that we would have had if Adam and Eve,who had that spiritual union with God before the fall.

James 1:16 Do not be led astray, my dear brothers and sisters.17 All generous giving and every perfect gift[q] is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.18 By his sovereign plan he gave us birth through the message of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

God is a God of reason. Isaiah 1:18 "Come let us reason together."

We are made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27 "So God made mankind in His own image."

We all have the ability to reason. 1st Peter 3:15 " Be ready to give a reason for the hope you have."
Acts 17 "Paul reasoned with the Athenians from the scriptures."

Even the lost have the ability to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. 1st Timothy 2:4 "who wants every man to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".

God can truly open the eyes of anyone but only if we come to Him with a open mind and heart.

 

[studier]

In other words, pistis isn’t isolated from obedience; it expresses itself through obedience. But obedience is the fruit of faith, not its co-cause.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try to take this bit by bit because we or I can get lost in dealing with too much at once.

One comment about something I thing we're already wrestling with:

In other words, pistis isn’t isolated from obedience; it expresses itself through obedience. But obedience is the fruit of faith, not its co-cause.

Firstly, as I think we've both made statements about, when I say faith-alone, I'm not speaking about the discussion in the 16th century, but about the way the phrase is used as a slogan today with what I see as an errant theology wherein pistis has been stripped of biblical detail and is being used in varying meanings straight and strictly from lexicons.

With that said, I don't see obedience as the fruit of pistis. In fact I think this is where thoughts re: pistis first begin to go off the rails and we lean back into faith-alone error.

A few thoughts as a basis (BTW, I'm not tied to any English translation but using them for convenience):

• NKJ Rom10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
  • Obedience and belief are used in parallel. They are entangled and functionally synonymous and we can apply some other similar terms to signify how they function together.
• NKJ Heb3:18-19 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
  • Disobedience and unbelief are used in parallel. They are entangled and functionally synonymous. When logically inverted we have obedience and belief again in parallel.
• NKJ 1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,"
  • Same parallelism (I do note a textual variant in manuscripts here).
• Obeying the Gospel (the parallel to believing the Gospel): Rom10:16; 2Thes1:8; 1Pet4:17
• Salvation to those who obey Jesus Christ (the parallel to believing in Jesus Christ) Heb5:9.
• Faith-Obedience: Paul uses the phrase "obedience [ ] pistis" bookending Romans Rom1:5; Rom16:26. One legitimate translation of this phrase filling in the [ ] is faith-obedience (entangled - in apposition). Based in part on Rom10:16 I see this being the way to translate this phrase. Paul also expresses his ministry as Christ working through him to make the nations obedient Rom15:18. Again, faith-obedience is so entangled as to be functionally synonymous - Paul can speak of His ministry as faith-obedience in the nations, obedience in the nations, faith in the nations - it in the end is all the same thing.
• Commands to believe in Jesus Christ - thus to believe is to obey 1John3:23; Acts16:31; Mark1:15; John14:1
  • This is a simple syllogism:
    • Major Premise: All commands from God require obedience
    • Minor Premise: Believing in Jesus Christ is a command from God
    • Conclusion: Therefore, believing in Jesus Christ is obedience.

IMO what we're seeing here is part of the Hebrew concept of what biblical pistis in God is. It is never separated from obedience to God - not at initial belief in Jesus Christ - not being in Christ - never.

Obedience is not derivative of pistis; it is entangled with it - functionally synonymous in biblical usage.

 

[studier]

Excellent question — and I really appreciate your desire for precision and for taking “every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor 10:5).

Strictly speaking, Scripture phrases it this way:

“By grace are ye saved through faith” (Eph 2:8-9)​

“Being justified by faith, we have peace with God” (Rom 5:1).​

So while the phrase “saved by faith” is a fair summary, the inspired wording keeps the order exact:

• Grace is the cause — the unearned favor of God.
• Faith is the means — the channel through which we receive that grace.
• Christ’s finished work is the ground — the reason salvation is possible at all.

We could diagram it this way:

Grace (source) → Faith (means) → Salvation (result).​

Thus, “saved by faith” is biblically accurate in meaning, but less exact in wording. Paul’s precision guards us from thinking faith earns salvation — it merely receives what grace provides.

So yes, when understood correctly — that faith is the instrument, not the cause — the statement “saved by faith” is true. The full, Spirit-given phrasing remains:

Saved by grace, through faith, apart from works, because of Christ alone.​

Grace and peace as you continue to pursue the mind of Christ in the Word.

I'm going to attempt to remain strict with the grammar, so a few comments for consideration:

• Is Grace the cause or the source or something else? It's a simple dative phrase. What's it telling us?
• "channel" may be a functional and pictorial way to explain dia + genitive in the sense of its fall-back translation of "through", but the precision of instrumentality "by means of" IMO is better for many reasons which may well come up as this proceeds, especially as we expand on pistis. I wouldn't mix pictures with instrumentality. Do you see the phrase as being instrumental?
• Again, for various reasons which we may get into, I'm going to ask that we stick to the wording of the Text. If we're prepared to see dia + pistis as instrumental, the "saved by means of pistis" is actually accurate and I wouldn't go back to "through".

I think it best to ask you your theological leanings if you would explain them. I'll start so we have a basis and you'll know more of what to expect, if you can't see it already: I no longer use the slogan I was theologically raised on - "faith alone in Christ alone" - and am happy to explain my reasoning from Scripture re: each part of that phrase.

How about you - what's your theological camp if any?

 

[HeIsHere]

they confirm that salvation has truly taken place.

To whom?

 

[studier]

I agree — pistis (faith) in the biblical sense is not mere intellectual assent or profession; it’s living, active trust that manifests itself in obedience. The Reformers’ use of “faith alone” was never meant to describe a faith that is alone, but rather to affirm that nothing in addition to faith (no works or merit of our own) contributes to justification.

James 2 helps clarify the distinction:

“Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24)This isn’t a contradiction of Paul’s teaching, but a complement to it — Paul addresses how we are justified before God (by grace through faith, apart from works), while James addresses what kind of faith justifies (a living faith that inevitably produces obedience).

In that sense, I agree entirely that obedience is inseparable from genuine faith — not as an added requirement for salvation, but as the natural fruit of it (Ephesians 2:8–10; Titus 2:11–14).

So yes, pistis and obedience are indeed co-instantiated, as you put it — two sides of the same coin of saving belief. The difference is that “faith alone” guards the foundation (grace, not merit), while obedience and repentance demonstrate the reality of that faith.

We’re not actually in agreement. This frames obedience as a fruit that follows faith - whereas I’m saying obedience is entangled with faith itself. Biblical pistis isn’t faith that later obeys; it’s faith-as-obedience from the start. That’s a key distinction.

I'll observe and maybe chime in from here on.

 

[studier]

In regard to the gospel being believed and the gospel being obeyed, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel.

In making this statement, we could be in agreement. But from other statements, I know we're not.

So, by saying that obedience/works is an integral part of faith, you are saying that obedience/works is the very essence of faith and that salvation by faith really means salvation by faith AND works? Is that what you are saying?

This is one of those "other statements" in the form of a question.

I didn't say obedience/works. This is your interpretation of what I said based in your faith-alone mindset.

What I articulated is faith/obedience (as I showed Paul does) and since faith is not works, neither is obedience.

 

[LightBearer316]

We’re not actually in agreement. This frames obedience as a fruit that follows faith - whereas I’m saying obedience is entangled with faith itself. Biblical pistis isn’t faith that later obeys; it’s faith-as-obedience from the start. That’s a key distinction.

I'll observe and maybe chime in from here on.

Thank you for that clarification — and I see where you’re drawing the line of distinction. I appreciate your patience and precision in pressing into what pistis truly encompasses.

I don’t disagree that genuine biblical faith is inherently obedient — when a person truly believes God, obedience is not something added later; it’s bound up in the very act of believing. Hebrews 11 illustrates this beautifully: “By faith, Abraham obeyed…” (Hebrews 11:8). His obedience was not a separate step after faith, but the visible expression of it.

So, while I’ve described obedience as the “fruit” of faith to emphasize sequence in experience, I can agree that biblically speaking, faith and obedience are inseparable realities — different facets of the same response to God’s grace.

In that sense, true pistis is indeed “faith-as-obedience,” because trusting Christ necessarily means submitting to Him. A faith that doesn’t obey isn’t faith at all — it’s merely acknowledgment without allegiance.

I value your insight here — this is exactly the kind of discussion that sharpens how we understand and articulate saving faith.

Grace and peace to you as we both keep mining the depths of His Word.

 

[LightBearer316]

To whom?

That’s a great question — and I appreciate you pressing in on that point.

When I said that works “confirm that salvation has truly taken place,” I meant they bear witness — not to God (who already knows the heart), but to ourselves and to others.

To God, nothing needs confirming — “The Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Timothy 2:19).
But to ourselves, works serve as assurance that our faith is genuine and not merely verbal or intellectual (2 Peter 1:10 — “make your calling and election sure”).
And to others, our obedience gives visible evidence of an inward reality — “I will show thee my faith by my works” (James 2:18; Matthew 5:16).

So the confirmation isn’t for God’s benefit but for the witness and integrity of our faith before men — and for the strengthening of our own assurance that what we profess is alive and real.

Grace and peace, brother.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Obedience is not derivative of pistis; it is entangled with it - functionally synonymous in biblical usage.

Faith is obedience

 

[LightBearer316]

I'm going to attempt to remain strict with the grammar, so a few comments for consideration:

• Is Grace the cause or the source or something else? It's a simple dative phrase. What's it telling us?
• "channel" may be a functional and pictorial way to explain dia + genitive in the sense of its fall-back translation of "through", but the precision of instrumentality "by means of" IMO is better for many reasons which may well come up as this proceeds, especially as we expand on pistis. I wouldn't mix pictures with instrumentality. Do you see the phrase as being instrumental?
• Again, for various reasons which we may get into, I'm going to ask that we stick to the wording of the Text. If we're prepared to see dia + pistis as instrumental, the "saved by means of pistis" is actually accurate and I wouldn't go back to "through".

I think it best to ask you your theological leanings if you would explain them. I'll start so we have a basis and you'll know more of what to expect, if you can't see it already: I no longer use the slogan I was theologically raised on - "faith alone in Christ alone" - and am happy to explain my reasoning from Scripture re: each part of that phrase.

How about you - what's your theological camp if any?

Thank you for that careful and well-reasoned reply — I genuinely appreciate your desire to stay close to the grammar and syntax of the Text itself. That’s exactly the kind of precision we all need more of.

Regarding the dative in τῇ γὰρ χάριτί, I’d agree that it functions most naturally as a dative of means or cause, depending on nuance. My earlier “source” phrasing was meant to express that salvation originates in God’s gracious initiative, but I fully see your point — the dative communicates that grace is the means or basis upon which the saving action occurs, not a separate “source” outside of God Himself.

Likewise, I appreciate your preference for “by means of” (διά + genitive) over “through.” That precision keeps pistis instrumental rather than merely spatial or metaphorical, which aligns well with Paul’s intent. I’m comfortable with that framing — “saved by means of grace, by means of faith” accurately reflects both relationships.

As for theological leanings, I’d describe myself simply as biblically conservative, with a high view of Scripture and salvation understood as by grace, through faith, on the basis of Christ’s finished work — apart from human merit, yet producing Spirit-wrought obedience. I’m not bound to any single system or slogan, though I was formed within a broadly Reformation (grace-centered) framework. My aim here is to handle the Text faithfully and let Scripture define its own categories rather than forcing it into ours.

Just to clarify — I believe in exegesis rather than eisegesis when it comes to interpreting Scripture. In other words, I want to draw meaning out of the text based on what the author — and ultimately the Holy Spirit — intended, rather than reading my own ideas or assumptions into it.

My goal is to let Scripture interpret Scripture, paying close attention to grammar, context, and the flow of revelation, so that what I conclude is truly what God said, not just what I think it means.

Grace and peace, brother.

 

[LightBearer316]

Faith is obedience

The statement “Faith is obedience” needs to be handled very precisely, because it can be both true in one sense and misleading in another depending on how it’s framed biblically.

Let’s unpack it carefully:

In one sense, faith and obedience are inseparable.

Genuine, saving faith always results in obedience.

• “By faith Abraham obeyed…” (Hebrews 11:8)
• “Faith worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6)
• “The obedience of faith.” (Romans 1:5; 16:26)

In that sense, faith includes obedience as its natural and immediate expression.
Faith that does not obey is not faith at all — it’s “dead” (James 2:17).

But grammatically and theologically, faith and obedience are distinct.

Faith is the means by which we receive God’s grace — not a meritorious work we perform.
Obedience is the fruit or evidence that such faith is real.
Paul carefully separates the two to preserve grace:

“To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,​

his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5​

So while true faith obeys, faith itself is not defined as obedience — it’s trust in God that produces obedience.

Faith obeys; obedience flows from faith.​

They are inseparable in practice, but not identical in essence.​

Faith saves apart from works, yet never remains without works.​

Grace and Peace

 

[mailmandan]

What I articulated is faith/obedience (as I showed Paul does) and since faith is not works, neither is obedience.

If obedience is not works then what is it? We are commanded to love one another (John 13:34) and if we obey that command by providing clothes and food to a brother or sister in need, wasn't that a work? James says it is. (James 2:15-16)

 

[pinebeach]

“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What part of works follow salvation are you not unable to comprehend? The Bible states ALL of our works are as filthy rags (look up the meaning of that for better understanding of what God thinks about 'our' works') God says we are created to do good works. Not OUR works.


But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph. 2:10

 

[LightBearer316]

If obedience is not works then what is it? We are commanded to love one another (John 13:34) and if we obey that command by providing clothes and food to a brother or sister in need, wasn't that a work? James says it is. (James 2:15-16)

That’s a great and very important question — thank you for raising it.

You’re right that acts of obedience like helping a brother or sister in need are indeed “works” in the everyday sense — James even uses that word (James 2:15–17). But Scripture distinguishes between “works of the law” (human effort to earn righteousness) and “works of faith” (the fruit that flows from genuine belief).

When Paul says salvation is “not of works” (Ephesians 2:9), he’s referring to works as a means of earning or meriting justification.
When James says, “faith without works is dead,” he’s talking about the outward evidence of living faith — the kind of faith that expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6).

So yes — loving others, feeding the hungry, and giving to those in need are works, but they are Spirit-produced works, not self-generated efforts to gain favor with God. They flow from salvation, not toward it.

So basically:

Works don’t earn salvation — they reveal it.​

Obedience isn’t the price of grace — it’s the proof of grace.​

​

That’s why Paul and James never contradict each other — they’re describing two sides of the same living faith.

Paul emphasizes the root of salvation—faith by grace.
Peter emphasizes the fruit of salvation—repentance and holiness.
Jesus unites them both: “Repent, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15).
James insists on the proof: “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

They’re not contradicting each other — they’re all describing the same gospel from different angles. Genuine faith (Paul) leads to repentance and holiness (Peter), which inevitably shows itself in action (James).

The gospel calls us not only to believe but also to be transformed. Faith, repentance, and holiness all flow together in the life of one who truly belongs to Christ.

Grace and peace, brother.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is obedience

Choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[Cameron143]

Faith may be associated with obedience, but it is not obedience. Faith is a matter of what one believes in their hearts. Obedience is a matter of performing what one believes, which is a function of the will. Conflating the two is simply an attempt to make works an aspect of salvation. Works play no part in the salvation of an individual.

 

[LightBearer316]

What part of works follow salvation are you not unable to comprehend? The Bible states ALL of our works are as filthy rags (look up the meaning of that for better understanding of what God thinks about 'our' works') God says we are created to do good works. Not OUR works.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph. 2:10

I completely agree that our works — apart from God — are worthless before Him. Isaiah 64:6 is crystal clear: any “righteousness” that originates from our own effort is as filthy rags in His sight. Nothing man-made can earn God’s favor or add to the finished work of Christ.

That’s exactly why Ephesians 2:10 follows verses 8–9. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, so that the works that follow are God’s works through us, not ours. He is both the author and the empowerer of them. As Philippians 2:13 says:

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”​

So when we speak of obedience or good works following salvation, we’re not talking about human effort trying to please God — we’re talking about the Spirit of God living in us, producing fruit that glorifies Him (John 15:5; Galatians 5:22–23).

So basically:

Before salvation — our works are filthy rags.
After salvation — our works are God’s workmanship.​

That’s the beauty of grace: even our obedience is His doing.

Grace and peace, brother.

 

[pinebeach]

I completely agree that our works — apart from God — are worthless before Him. Isaiah 64:6 is crystal clear: any “righteousness” that originates from our own effort is as filthy rags in His sight. Nothing man-made can earn God’s favor or add to the finished work of Christ.

That’s exactly why Ephesians 2:10 follows verses 8–9. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, so that the works that follow are God’s works through us, not ours. He is both the author and the empowerer of them. As Philippians 2:13 says:

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”​

So when we speak of obedience or good works following salvation, we’re not talking about human effort trying to please God — we’re talking about the Spirit of God living in us, producing fruit that glorifies Him (John 15:5; Galatians 5:22–23).

So basically:

Before salvation — our works are filthy rags.​

After salvation — our works are God’s workmanship.​

That’s the beauty of grace: even our obedience is His doing.

Grace and peace, brother.

Good on yah! Our works are still OUR works whether or not we are believers. Being convinced of what God's says are HIS works are not OUR works. Plenty of 'Christians' running around doing good works. And making sure we all know about them. Can you tell the difference? God can.

 

[LightBearer316]

Good on yah! Our works are still OUR works whether or not we are believers. Being convinced of what God's says are HIS works are not OUR works. Plenty of 'Christians' running around doing good works. And making sure we all know about them. Can you tell the difference? God can.

I hear you — and you’re right that plenty of people (even believers) do “good works” in their own strength or for recognition. God absolutely knows the difference.

What I meant is that when a believer is walking in the Spirit, the works that flow from that life are His, not ours — because they’re the result of His power and will, not self-effort.

“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13)​

​

That’s exactly why James said, “Faith without works is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)
He wasn’t teaching salvation by works, but showing that genuine, living faith will always express itself through obedience — not self-generated deeds, but Spirit-produced fruit.

So yes, outwardly they’re still our actions, but inwardly they’re His workmanship — born of grace, not self. That’s why Jesus said, “Without Me ye can do nothing.” (John 15:5)

When we act apart from Him, it’s “our” work; when we act through Him, it’s His work in us.

Grace and peace, brother.