Saved by faith alone?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

Matt12:22-37 (NKJ)

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw.

23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

27 "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, (c) but the blasphemy [of-against] the Spirit (d) will not be forgiven men.

32 "(a)Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, (b) it will be forgiven him; but (c) whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, (d) it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

35 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Mark3:22-30 (NKJ)

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said were saying, "He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts/is casting out demons."
  • The scribes were saying – imperfect tense
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 "And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 "No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.

28 "Assuredly/Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
  • All the sins even the blasphemies – as many as they may blaspheme – will be forgiven (future passive indicative)
29 (a)"but-de he who[ever] blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has (b) does not have forgiveness, but-alla is subject to/liable to/guilty of eternal condemnation judgment (N-A Text say “sin”) "—

30 because they said were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."
  • Compare to 3:22
Luke12:8-10 (NKJ)

8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

9 "But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

10 "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; (c) but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, (d) it will not be forgiven.


The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

Lexically & contextually:
  • What was being said by whom and when:
    • Scribes from Jerusalem:
      • were saying [Jesus] has Beelzebub – Jesus is casting out demons by the ruler of the demons (Mark3:22)
      • were saying, “[Jesus] has an unclean spirit” (Mark3:30).
      • These verbs are the Greek imperfect tense. They’re looking back to this period in time and giving us a motion picture of what was taking place. It is not a snapshot of a single blasphemous statement made in the past.
    • Pharisees:
      • When they heard that Jesus did a [Messianic] miracle, they said: “This [man] (Jesus) is not casting out the demons if not/except by the Beelzebul – the ruler of the demons (Matt12:24)
    • In context, this is extreme opposition to Jesus by the religious leadership while Jesus was on the earth doing evidentiary miracles by the Holy Spirit attesting to Jesus being YHWH’s Messiah. They are attributing these evidentiary miracles done by the Holy Spirit to Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.
  • The sin & the judgment:
    • IN THE CONTEXT JUST STATED ABOVE, Jesus refers to this specific sin as:
      • The blasphemy [of] the Spirit Matt12:31(c)
      • Speaking against the Holy Spirit Matt12:32(c)
      • Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit Mark3:29(a); Luke12:10(c)
    • Committing this sin and the judgment for doing so:
      • IN THE ABOVE STATED CONTEXT:
        • Matt12:31-32
          • Matt12:31(c-d) The blasphemy [of] the Spirit will not be forgiven [to the men]
            • The sin (IN CONTEXT): The blasphemy [of] the Spirit
            • The Judgment: Will not be forgiven = Future Passive Indicative verb = this is a conclusive statement.
          • Matt12:32(c) Who[ever] speaks against the Holy Spirit
            • Aorist Active Subjunctive verb – With the relative pronoun this conditional grammar becomes what some grammarians call an “Indefinite Relative Clause” – “who” becomes “whoever” – the clause could be translated as “whoever may speak against” to make the contingency clear that there is a “whoever” and that they “may speak against” thus clarifying all the contingency here.
            • This Aorist Subjunctive verb is dealing with Aspect – meaning the type of action rather than the time of the action. IOW, the timing is not stated in the verb (but may be in the context), and the type of action is being viewed as a whole – a completed action.
              • So, by itself it tells us nothing about this being a single act, a repeated act, or anything else about it other than it is whole and complete.
              • Looking back in the context of Mark3:22 & 29, we can see that these actions were taking place, possibly repeatedly during that period of time.
              • Looking at Matt12:24 we’re only told that the Pharisees said this on one occasion.
              • Looking at Matt12:33 we can see Jesus commanding what could be viewed as repentance and then warnings that this judgment for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in this context is serious, final, and they don’t want to be subject to it. IOW, there was still room to stop and turn from it. BUT, if they did not stop, there would be a point where the action was deemed complete and the judgment applicable.
          • Matt12:32(d)
            • it will not be forgiven [to] the man], either in this age or in the about to [be].
              • “[to] the man] is a textual variant in manuscripts
              • This just expands on Matt12:31(d) beginning with the same language: “it will not be forgiven” – a Future Passive Indicative verb – a conclusive statement
              • “either in this age or in the about to [be]” is likely idiomatic for “never”. The last clause speaks of something impending and soon to be.
 
The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (cont'd)
  • Mark3:28
    • (a) Who[ever] blasphemes against the Holy Spirit
      • Another Aorist Active Subjunctive verb preceded by a relative pronoun – an Indefinite Relative Clause (see explanation above) and the Aorist speaking of Aspect (see explanation above)
      • So, there again is contingency in the “whoever” and in the whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
      • Since Mark writes in the same contingent and aspectual language regarding “whoever” and this sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being Aspectual and thus telling us nothing about it having been once, or ongoing, or any such detail, other than the action is being viewed as a whole, we simply do not have this detail in this verse, but we do have his detail in Mar3:22 & 29 that this specific blasphemy “was taking place”.
      • I see no reason to ignore what Jesus has commanded and taught in Matt12:33-37 regarding the possibility up to a point to stop this behavior. BUT after the action was deemed whole and complete, the judgment is applicable and is final.
    • (b) does not have forgiveness, rather is [a man] subject to/liable to/guilty of eternal judgment (or “sin” – manuscript variant).
      • These verbs are Present Active Indicative – they at quick glance simply seem to be telling us of a factual condition.
      • Combined with Mark3:28(a) and Matt12:33-37, it looks to me like Mark is viewing this blaspheming of the Holy Spirit as being whole and complete (Aorist Subjunctive in Mark3:28(a) and says [they] do not have forgiveness and are subject to eternal judgment (or to an eternal sin).
      • So, Mark in effect is advancing Matthew and showing us there is a point where the action is whole and there is no turning from the consequences – the eternal judgment.
      • Could these present tenses be telling us there is room for repentance while the blaspheming is taking place in line with what Jesus commanded and taught in Matt12:33-37? I’d have to be convinced of something I don’t see at the moment because the Aorist Subjunctive action would not be whole and final nor would the judgment be final if it could be temporary.
    • Luke12:10
      • (c) but to the [man] who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit
        • Aorist Active Participle – Substantival functioning as a noun and the subject of the sentence. Aorist again is aspectual and only viewing the action as a complete whole, a finalized act, so it’s not giving us any details about any repetitiveness or time details of the act. This fits perfectly with the Matthew and Mark details.
      • (d) it will not be forgiven
        • Matt12:31(d) will not be forgiven
        • Matt12:32(d) it will not be forgiven…
        • Mark3:29(b) does not have forgiveness…
Summary of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:
  • It was specific to the time Jesus was on the earth and the Holy Spirit was providing miraculous evidence that Jesus is YHWH’s Messiah (Ps2 and the foundation of the Gospel 1Cor3:11)
  • It was a sin that was being done by some – seemingly mainly by the religious leadership – in some unspecified detail as to its repetitiveness.
  • The language provides some room for repentance.
  • The language shows there is a wholeness – a completion – a finality of this action.
  • If the action was completed, then the consequential judgment was final.
 
Are you saying you do not have a will?
Again word games. I most certainly have "a will" but the question is do we have a freewill.

You need to define your terms or stick to one will. Your choice.

It is Scripture that man's will is opposed to God.
What are you attempting to say? Is this opposition voluntary or involuntary?

The mind of the flesh is a slave to sin and incapable of choosing what FWers claim it can.
What are "FWers" claiming that is so wrong?

You speak in such vague terms.
 
What in the "context" of Eph. 2:8-10 forces the reader to assume it should be see as all-encompassing instead of simply accepted as written?

The rest of the NT, but Romans for starters:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
 
Again word games. I most certainly have "a will" but the question is do we have a freewill.

You need to define your terms or stick to one will. Your choice.

What are you attempting to say? Is this opposition voluntary or involuntary?

What are "FWers" claiming that is so wrong?

You speak in such vague terms.

God created man in His Own Image.... He has free will to decide to do what He wants to do.

Mankind also has free will to decide to do whatever it is he wants to do as well.

This WHY Gal 6:7,8 tells us that whatsoever . . . . WE . . . sow is what we reap.

Mankind decides his own destiny in that he either decides to accept the Lord as His Lord and Savior to live for the Lord, or he decides to reject the Lord and live to serve self.

Glad to be able to wrap this up for you fellas...

Those claiming to not have free will are deceived by the devil in to believing man was not created in God'
s Image which is calling God a liar which is how we know they are being deceived by the devil
 
The rest of the NT, but Romans for starters:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
This is not context.

This is personal thoughts on a totally different book.

I am sincerely shocked that you think these verses are "context".
 
While we are on the subject of human will, can man truely repent? In the KJV, "repent" appears 46 times, "repented" 32 times, "repentance" 26 times, "repenteth" 5 times, and other minor forms bring the total to about 106 occurrences.
Much of the Old Testament uses words that mean “return” or “turn around,” which are translated as “repent” only in some passages.[biblestudytools]
• The concept of repentance is thus present many more times than simply the direct usage of the English word “repent”.[rethinknow +1]

So, the question is - is repentance a voluntary act (of the will) done by man, or involuntary?
 
Ah, I see. Then you didn't know what I was saying in my first post.

"Wrong again."
No.

As always, you’re missing my point. Way to deflect from the actual problem….. This is what people do, I guess, when you’re backed into a corner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doll
God created man in His Own Image.... He has free will to decide to do what He wants to do.

Mankind also has free will to decide to do whatever it is he wants to do as well.

This WHY Gal 6:7,8 tells us that whatsoever . . . . WE . . . sow is what we reap.

Mankind decides his own destiny in that he either decides to accept the Lord as His Lord and Savior to live for the Lord, or he decides to reject the Lord and live to serve self.

Glad to be able to wrap this up for you fellas...

Those claiming to not have free will are deceived by the devil in to believing man was not created in God'
s Image which is calling God a liar which is how we know they are being deceived by the devil

Yes, and the worst part is them not realizing that if souls lack MFW, then it is God who is responsible for sin.
 
All verses should be read within context.

Personal understandings of certain verses in different books is not context.

And this is what GWH is doing.

It is more context than YOUR understanding of fewer verses in one book!