Saved by faith alone?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
My words are obviously true, because if everything in the Bible were so clear as to be undebatable you would have nothing to say.
2 Peter 3:16 - also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
 
With respect, I've pointed you to the logical fallacies you tend to put forth in arguing your theology. In this statement you’ve put forth at least 4 more: assuming past exposure guarantees present accuracy; using personal history to deflect critique; shifting the topic from logic to biography, and; treating past debates as proof of correctness.

None of these address the actual issue of exempting yourself from your critique of certain folks' doctrines.
I respectfully disagree.
 
With respect, I've pointed you to the logical fallacies you tend to put forth in arguing your theology. In this statement you’ve put forth at least 4 more: assuming past exposure guarantees present accuracy; using personal history to deflect critique; shifting the topic from logic to biography, and; treating past debates as proof of correctness.

None of these address the actual issue of exempting yourself from your critique of certain folks' doctrines.
You certainly know mailmandan's modus operandi well.
 
So why don't you or Magenta simply explain your understanding of freewill.
Free will is not taught in the Bible. We have gone over this before but you would rather misrepresent than apply yourself to understanding. That is why you present your coerced will baloney, which is a logical fallacy and also dishonest since it is not what I believe. Read the Bible someday and you will find that man is enabled (which is not coercion), cannot come to God unless God draws them (blows your fantasy free will out of the water) and that those given to Jesus by God will come to Him, no maybes involved. You may also come to discover that the unregenerated man is a slave to sin, opposed to the spiritual things of God, refusing to come into the light as a lover of darkness, UNABLE to submit to or obey God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rosemaryx
While not foretelling the future, this was expected. Once you start exempting yourself from statements like the one you made, it is expected that you'll reject critique.
I'm simply saying I've been there, done that and witnessed it numerous times. I'm exempt from salvation by works and church indoctrination, but I'm not exempt from all areas of critique. I don't claim to be perfect.
 
2 Peter 3:16 - also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Good find! Very relevant to the discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mailmandan
Certain folks are more interested in accommodating their biased church doctrine at all costs than they are in Biblical context, along with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. (2 Timothy 2:15)
I could easily say the same for you.

Salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is crystal clear yet these certain folks remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works anyway, because they are trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.
No one here is suggesting that we need to earn our salvation through works. This is the boogeyman that lives in your head.
 
Yep, only I prefer to call it tulipism in order to take personalities out of it and focus on the doctrine that is most heretical.
So you DO think this is an essential doctrine (free will) and those that do not agree with it are outside the faith. Why is it you keep equivocating on this? I didn't agree with free will. Do you believe because I believe in heresy (your word) that I am not a Christian?
 
So you DO think this is an essential doctrine (free will) and those that do not agree with it are outside the faith. Why is it you keep equivocating on this? I didn't agree with free will. Do you believe because I believe in heresy (your word) that I am not a Christian?

I don't believe you believe the heresy that God hates half of humanity.
 
humbly back ON topic, eh?
saved by "faith alone"?

Depends:
"What Saith All The Scriptures"? Rightly Divided!:
"And if by Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace​
is no more Grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more Grace:​
otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 AV)​

No more of works? Well, was it before?:

A) God's ( Representation of twelve ) Context :

prophecy / covenants / law With Christ As The Humble Servant,
"minister of the circumcision" and to be future King, on the earth:

John [ the baptizer ], Christ, the 70 sent out, and the twelve, to the
"lost sheep of the house [ 12 tribes ] of Israel", preaching to them,
the gospel of the kingdom

“faith plus works” Scriptural Requirements of this gospel:

1) water baptism "For the remission of sins" (works)

2) keep the law of Moses (works)

3) righteousness Exceeding Pharisees’ (works) (Matthew 5:20 AV)

4) forgive others first, then be forgiven (works) (Matthew 6:14-15 AV)

5) sell all, take up cross, follow Christ (works)

6) endure unto the end (works) (Matthew 24:13 AV)

7) mercy toward others (works) (Matthew 25:34-40 AV)

8) Jews/Hebrews = All the above "mixed with" what, Exactly?

"...we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore​
fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should​
seem to come short of it.​
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word​
preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."​
Scripturally Confirmed by "faith without works is dead" to
"the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1, 2:17, 20, 26 AV)

gospel of the kingdom

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

And, Exactly What Is It Now?

The Gospel Of The Grace Of God

B) God's Other ( Representation Of One! [ see Ephesians 4:1-6 AV ] ) Context :

Mystery / Grace With Christ As The Risen and Glorified Head Of
His Church, The One Body Of Christ, and Heavenly Minister Of
Reconciliation:

Paul, one apostle to the [ blinded Jews ] and the [ heathen ] Gentiles,
preaching Jesus Christ, According To [ Given By Christ, From Heaven ]
The Revelation of The Mystery:

The Gospel Of The Grace Of God

1) Paul, Saved By Grace And Mercy, far apart from Jerusalem, the twelve
apostles, and their prophecy, covenants, and law, God Committing to
him "The Dispensation Of The Grace Of God" (Ephesians 3:2 AV), With:

2) Paul, the first 'member' of the One Body Of Christ, Baptized By The
One Spirit in Acts Chapter 9, which is:​

a) the One New man [ not a woman 'bride' ]
(Ephesians 2:15 cp "man" in Ephesians 4:13 AV), which is:​

b) A New 'creation' (2 Corinthians 5:17 AV), and Now:

c) all members after Paul, In God's Dispensation Of Grace, "follow a pattern":

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first​
Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern​
to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life​
everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:16 AV)​
+​
"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."​

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."​
"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children"​
"Brethren, be followers together of me..."​

3) Two Requirements of The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"By Grace Through faith" ( alive! ) Apart from all works, For God's​
Eternal Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4;​

4) The 'One Gospel' for Today, In Which God Forbids for another to
be preached, or mixed in, with His Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into​
The Grace Of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but​
there be some that trouble you, and would pervert The Gospel Of Christ.​
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto​
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.​
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other​
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."​

Lord, I pray that all brothers and sisters are in agreement with your One
Grace Gospel
of today, and will not fall under this horrible curse.

Amen.

Study Rightly Divided.png
 
I'm simply saying I've been there, done that and witnessed it numerous times. I'm exempt from salvation by works and church indoctrination, but I'm not exempt from all areas of critique. I don't claim to be perfect.

Claiming openness to critique rings hollow when your heralded faith-alone theology is consistently self-exempted.
 
I could easily say the same for you.

No one here is suggesting that we need to earn our salvation through works. This is the boogeyman that lives in your head.
After leaving the Roman Catholi church, I came to believe what I believe by studying scripture. No one particular church indoctrinated me to believe what I believe now.

If works "in addition" to faith become the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation, then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation, which would mean that we merit salvation, at least in part. You can't have it both ways.
 
2 Peter 3:16 - also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand,
which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2-Peter3-15-16.png

2 Peter 3 v 15-16 ~ Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 
Free will is not taught in the Bible. We have gone over this before but you would rather misrepresent than apply yourself to understanding. That is why you present your coerced will baloney, which is a logical fallacy and also dishonest since it is not what I believe. Read the Bible someday and you will find that man is enabled (which is not coercion), cannot come to God unless God draws them (blows your fantasy free will out of the water) and that those given to Jesus by God will come to Him, no maybes involved. You may also come to discover that the unregenerated man is a slave to sin, opposed to the spiritual things of God, refusing to come into the light as a lover of darkness, UNABLE to submit to or obey God.
If the chosen of God are "UNABLE" to chose to follow God but follow anyway how is this not coerced?

If mankind cannot choose to not be in slavery, how is this not coercion?

Slavery by nature is coercion.

If God is picking who will be in His kingdom and those chosen to be in it cannot refuse or accept, is this not coercion?

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GWH
If the chosen of God are "UNABLE" to chose to follow God but follow anyway how is this not coerced?

If mankind cannot choose to not be in slavery, how is this not coercion?

Slavery by nature is coercion.

If God is picking who will be in His kingdom and those chosen to be in it cannot refuse or accept, is this not coercion?

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Chosen of God unable? From where do you get these gross misrepresentations?

You now come across like you are completely ignorant of the very argument of free will you staunchly support.

Oh, yes, the Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin. I think there may be a glimmer of hope for you yet...

Though it is more likely you are a Pelagian heretic.