Let me ask this.
Are you saying before the foundation of the world, God's Plan was that future Believers would be saved through Jesus, who is the one Foreknown by God?
But this verse does not come to fruition until the moment a person is saved?
Salvation is a Free Gift.
- Thread starter MikeF
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Are you saying before the foundation of the world, God's Plan was that future Believers would be saved through Jesus, who is the one Foreknown by God?
But this verse does not come to fruition until the moment a person is saved?
I didn't get that impression.
So, before the foundation of the world, did God have an intimate relationship with the elect individuals that He had not yet created?
How could God have "experiential knowledge" of persons He had not yet created. Surely, all the knowledge He had was only conceptual at that point. Experiential knowledge of a person, is not just observing them behaving and taking notes; it requires two-way interaction between the knower and the known.
Jesus isn't the only One foreknown of God. Read Romans 8:29. God isn't conforming Jesus to the image of Himself. He is taking those whom He foreknew in Christ and conforming them to the image of His Son.
Yes, as odd as that may sound. I can't explain how that works, but I believe that is what scripture teaches.
Jesus is the only one who is specifically mentioned because He is how "THEM" can become those things.
Wrong. Read the text. Whom He foreknew are the same as those being conformed to the image of His Son.
It's 100% Jesus
29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren;
Who did God foreknow?
The WORD who would become flesh.
Who was conformed to be the image of God Son?
the WORD made flesh You TODAY are my Begotten Son.
Who is the firstborn among many brethren?
the WORD made flesh.
The entire verse is about JESUS, the WORD made flesh.
PaulThomson said:
So, before the foundation of the world, did God have an intimate relationship with the elect individuals that He had not yet created?
An appeal to mystery shows a weak case for your proposition.
Maybe foreknow does not always mean the relational way of knowing. Maybe it can mean conceptual knowing. And maybe here it just means conceptual knowing. That would remove the need to appeal to mystery.
I think FollowerofShilohis is pointing out, in quoting John, that the Saviour was foreknown relationally before the foundation of the world, but the elect were foreknown only conceptually before the foundation of the world and become relationally known, as Christ has always been relationally known, when they become in Christ by faith.
So, before the foundation of the world, did God have an intimate relationship with the elect individuals that He had not yet created?
An appeal to mystery shows a weak case for your proposition.
Maybe foreknow does not always mean the relational way of knowing. Maybe it can mean conceptual knowing. And maybe here it just means conceptual knowing. That would remove the need to appeal to mystery.
I think FollowerofShilohis is pointing out, in quoting John, that the Saviour was foreknown relationally before the foundation of the world, but the elect were foreknown only conceptually before the foundation of the world and become relationally known, as Christ has always been relationally known, when they become in Christ by faith.
How could God have "experiential knowledge" of persons He had not yet created. Surely, all the knowledge He had was only conceptual at that point. Experiential knowledge of a person, is not just observing them behaving and taking notes; it requires two-way interaction between the knower and the known.
I have to agree with Cameron on the point that those foreknown in v. 29 are the many brothers. But I think it must be a conceptual foreknowledge here of a band of brothers who would be formed through their common faith in the Son. i agree with you though that only Christ was foreknown relationally before the foundation of the world, as per I Peter i:20-21.
Maybe he will change his position somewhat if he considers, in a Berean manner, my recent input.
I see where I messed up at 
Verse 28 is the key:
28 But we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose.
It's talking about those who are already saved.
Verse 28 is the key:
28 But we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose.
It's talking about those who are already saved.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he ( Jesus ) might be the firstborn among many brethren.( The children of God ) [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
It's this Jesus first by himself alone and then those who are believers in him are included as the elect" the body of Christ "
Galatians 3:16, 26-29 KJV
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
...[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Christ is the singular heir who is sharing his Inheritance with believers in him the singular elect that we are elect in him
Hebrews 2:9-11, 13 KJV
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
[13] And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
This is interesting here.
From Theologians. I do not trust Scholars because many are atheist but Theologians are Bible Professors in Bible Colleges.
(Rom 8:29-30) Notice the conjunction, “for”’; it ties what is about to be said with what has just been said. We know what God has done for the Old Testament saints, those that He “already knew, He predestined, (aorist indicative, completed action) to be conformed to the image or likeness of His Son. They died long before Jesus was even born but they are still a part of the promises of God! God planned from the beginning to bring their salvation to completion in Christ Jesus. Moreover, those He predestined (aorist indicative, completed action) He justified (aorist indicative, completed action) and those He justified He glorified (aorist indicative, completed action). If Paul had any intended notion that he was speaking to the Roman Christians he would have used the same tense he used previously in verse 16, that being the aorist passive subjective. He did not do so because he was speaking here of the Old Testament saints who had already died but God had provided hope for.
Theologians claim Paul in Romans 8:29-30 are speaking about the Old Testament Saints who God FOREKNEW and PREDESTINED to be conformed to be like Christ.
From Theologians. I do not trust Scholars because many are atheist but Theologians are Bible Professors in Bible Colleges.
(Rom 8:29-30) Notice the conjunction, “for”’; it ties what is about to be said with what has just been said. We know what God has done for the Old Testament saints, those that He “already knew, He predestined, (aorist indicative, completed action) to be conformed to the image or likeness of His Son. They died long before Jesus was even born but they are still a part of the promises of God! God planned from the beginning to bring their salvation to completion in Christ Jesus. Moreover, those He predestined (aorist indicative, completed action) He justified (aorist indicative, completed action) and those He justified He glorified (aorist indicative, completed action). If Paul had any intended notion that he was speaking to the Roman Christians he would have used the same tense he used previously in verse 16, that being the aorist passive subjective. He did not do so because he was speaking here of the Old Testament saints who had already died but God had provided hope for.
Theologians claim Paul in Romans 8:29-30 are speaking about the Old Testament Saints who God FOREKNEW and PREDESTINED to be conformed to be like Christ.
^
This here makes sense because verse 29 begins with "Whom He Foreknew" but does not say before the foundation of the world like He does when speaking about Jesus.
And it's also a fact that the Old Testament Saints would need to be conformed to Jesus like we are.
And it's all because how Paul ""wrote this"" ((aorist indicative, completed action)).
This here makes sense because verse 29 begins with "Whom He Foreknew" but does not say before the foundation of the world like He does when speaking about Jesus.
And it's also a fact that the Old Testament Saints would need to be conformed to Jesus like we are.
And it's all because how Paul ""wrote this"" ((aorist indicative, completed action)).
I see where I messed up at
Verse 28 is the key:
28 But we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose.
It's talking about those who are already saved.
Those who love God through Christ
John 14:15, 20-21, 23-24 KJV
[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
It's hard to hear but
Hebrews 5:9 KJV
[9] and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;