Sabbath

[MalikB]

The curse of the Law is Deut 28. That's what YOUR Sabbath doctrine leads to.

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (NKJV)
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away.
27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.
28 The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart.
29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes.
32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.
53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.
60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you.
61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.
63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life.

And that ain't all folks!

Ummm... these curses have already happened.

 

[Duckybill]

Ummm... these curses have already happened.

About Sabbath preachers:

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[rayzor]

Jesus declared all foods clean:No Jocund Revelation 2:14 no food dedicated 2 idol.Some people eat some real nasty stuff! are marijuana brownies ok?

 

[Duckybill]

We are under the command of God to obey His Sabbath Rest - anyone that refuses OR works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE.

I think DavidTree is condemning us to Hell. And I think DavidTree doesn't even know what Sabbath he's talking about.

 

[MalikB]

You still missed the point

the law required perfection,

if you are not perfect you have failed to keep the law

your trying to keep what only Christ kept, and insisting everyone else do it

That is moving the goal post. We were talking about the "curse of the law".... and once a person under stands what that means and the word "redeem" means, it is clear that the penalties for breaking the law is what went away, not the law itself.

I have said on here many times that we aren't going to be able to keep the law perfectly.... that is why we require grace for salvation. However... our works should represent our faith. So we try our best to follow law out of love, honor, respect and trust in our Father.

 

[Jocund]

Jesus declared all foods clean:No Jocund Revelation 2:14 no food dedicated 2 idol.Some people eat some real nasty stuff! are marijuana brownies ok?

1 Corinthians 10 is a good section for that topic. The food is not to be eaten for the sake of idol worship, not because the food itself is unclean. If you consider the brownies unclean, they are unclean to you.

 

[rayzor]

Jocund all things lawful murder 2 if i think its ok?

 

[rayzor]

suppose something cause u to get excited like frog legs or 2 break out into hives? some things we eat do effect or thinking and that can affect r realationship with god.

 

[Gideon300]

Chapter and verse for your claims please

Just read the letter to the Galatians. Or Romans. Or Paul's second letter to Timothy. You could also read the sermon on the mount. What is it about "new" that you do not understand?

 

[vic1980]

Isaiah 66

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Now the question is who change the sabbath of The LORD ...

Be reminded this verse is speaking upon new heavens and the new earth !!!

​

 

[vic1980]

Revelation 14:12 ​

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The commandments of God never have change , if you have read Isaiah , then you understand that Paul was not writing against God sabbath , but wolfs have enter among you . Think about what Messiah taught when He stated the following ...​

Matthew 24 ​

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I believe every Christian Chat member or online viewer should re-read those verses , these verses specifically are pointing the reader upon the end times events ...

Satan mission is to destroy not only those that keep the commandments of God , but decieve the gentiles that God commandments are obsolete ...

Messiah taught us to keep God commandment ...

Shalom​

 

[MalikB]

This is getting very long and I am responding to other ppl on here as well, so I'm going to try to narrow this down more to the law and scriptures about it....

I've addressed Roman's 14 enough on this thread and don't want to keep going in circles. You can believe its not about fasting and apply the verses to other topics if you want. All I can do is suggest that you study more about the culture and people living in the area at the time... and start looking up these words in their original languages. You will begin to see that words like "law", "unclean", and so many others, have different words in greek or hebrew that were translated to the same word in English. You are mistaken if you think you can just pick up a Bible today, read it in English, and have a clear understanding of it.

I suggest you read Mark 7 again.

"“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”" - Mark 7:18-23 NIV

That isn't talking about ritual washing being obsolete, that is a description of no food being unclean in itself. It’s a clear message about dietary requirements.

You did the exact same thing with Mark 7 as you did with Romans 14. Mark 7 is a lot easier to know the context though because its right there at the beginning of the chapter:

Mark 7:1-5

7 The Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus. 2 They noticed that some of his disciples were eating with UNCLEAN hands, that is, without washing them. 3 (The Pharisees—and indeed all the Jewish people—don’t eat unless they wash their hands properly, following the tradition of their elders. 4 They don’t eat anything from the marketplace unless they dip it in water. They also observe many other traditions, such as the proper washing of washing cups, jars, brass pots, and dinner tables.) 5 So the Pharisees and the scribes asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders? Instead, they eat with unclean hands.”

Now the word "unclean" here in verse 2 is the same greek word used in Roman's 14:14. This is "unclean" according to man made laws, not God's law. The Pharisees were judging the disciples for not washing their hands. So when you get down to verse 18-23, this is talking about the body being able to clean out the dirt from unwashed hands... this is not giving people permission to break dietary laws. The right verse out of context though could probably make any sin acceptable.

The entire old covenants vs. new covenant is a complex topic. Each covenant has its own set of laws (rules, scripture, prophesy) relative to them, and perceived unwritten conventions to reach compliance with these laws are often applied.

I would't say the topic is simple, but I think its a lot more complex than it needs to be when so many are holding on to certain foundational falsehoods, traditions and ideologies that keep people from looking at information with an open mind.

Do have an example of a ceremonial law that isn't a "law of men" in your worldview?

I'm not sure... maybe holy days. I'm not understanding how this became about ceremonial law.... I was just speaking about the word "unclean" and how there are different greek words that are used in scripture when referring to man made laws and what is unclean to God.

A well-drawn circle is still a close approximation to a perfect circle, even if it isn't truly a perfect circle. The perfect circle can only be seen inwardly.

Regardless, the bible contains error.... by definition, that makes it fallible.

Plato's perfect circle is infallible, its manifestations are not. Scripture is infallible, its manifestations are not.

God's Word (what He says) is infallible. The bible is not.

It becomes dishonest if there is contradicting evidence that leads to cognitive dissonance. Some types of contradictions are OK. E.g. whether Jesus wore a purple or red robe at the crucifixion is a descriptive contradiction that can be resolved (e.g. "it was magenta" or "it was both colours"). We can test those interpretations against other parts of scripture to see which is the best fit.

We may encounter several sets of interpretations that contradict each other but are consistent with the base information by themselves. Similar to plotting a curve on a set of data points, it is possible to have more than one curve that fits the data. We can have reasons for preferring one curve over another (including a preference for simplicity) but we cannot declare that our preferred shape is the only valid answer if other valid interpretations exist. At that point we would be discussing the merits of a given convention for selecting a preferred representation.

Part 1/3

An error is an error, a contradiction is a contradiction.... both of these things prove the bible is not infallible. That does not mean there isn't a lot of truth in it. I believe a perfect God picked out the best imperfect people to be witnesses to Him and carry out His message.

 

[Duckybill]

Isaiah 66

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Now the question is who change the sabbath of The LORD ...

Be reminded this verse is speaking upon new heavens and the new earth !!!

​

OT NEVER overrules NT!

 

[Duckybill]

You are mistaken if you think you can just pick up a Bible today, read it in English, and have a clear understanding of it.

Your God doesn't know English? You're a Hebrew and Greek expert?

 

[MalikB]

How are we to ascertain what is the word of God without looking inward? And when we look inward, how do we know that what we find is the correct answer? The message of the New Testament resonates with those that are Christian. The law is written on the heart and mind of believers.

I don't believe this has to do with belonging to the Christian religion... and for those that I believe have the law written on their hearts and minds, I believe they will be keeping many of the laws without knowing they are laws, and would eventually recognize the truth in the other laws when their time comes.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” - 2 Peter 3:16-17 KJV

The passage doesn’t say anything about “the majority” having the wrong idea. It mentions that the unlearned and unstable get things wrong. James 1:8 describes those of weak faith as unstable. There is a mention of “some things Paul says are hard to understand” which can be an indication of metaphor and symbolism. If we follow through with the concept of metaphors and symbolism, the Romans 14 references to meat and the like could be talking about spiritual meat such as in Hebrews 5.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” - Hebrews 5:12 KJV

You are correct about 2 Peter not saying that "the majority"... i think I was mixing that passage up with "the whole world being deceived" or something of the sort. My beliefs on Roman's 14 remain the same... fasting, and being judged based off of man made laws.

So your interpretation is that either Paul’s words agree with your interpretation or Paul is a false prophet?

No... My belief is that the way to recognize a false prophet is by whether or not they are teaching against the Fathers law. I believe in the Messiah because I believe he followed the Fathers law and taught how it was always MEANT to be kept. There are some weird things that make me unsure about Paul that I'm still researching, but for the most part I just believe his writings are just greatly misinterpreted in modern Christianity. But yea, IF I did come to the conclusion that he was teaching that the law no longer applied, to me that wouldn't align with the other NT scriptures and of course the OT... and then I would look at him as a false prophet.

The law applies circumstantially according to Paul. One has to rely on their heart and mind to ascertain how the law applies to them. There are interesting conditional phrasings in the OT for some of the rules that were laid out. God says “do not eat that because it is unclean to you.” That rule might have been true for Israelites of the day for particular reasons. In the same way that some people have lactose intolerance as an adult, but a different group of people might not have lactose intolerance. Perhaps there were circumstantial reasons for some of the OT rules. Why wouldn’t the phrasing simply be “don’t eat that”?

Part 2/3

When I am speaking of God's "laws", I am speaking of all instructions from the Father. Of course all laws weren't given for all people at all times. Noah was instructed to build the boat, that is not a "law" that we ever have to deal with. But there were laws specific to men, some specific to women, priests..... some for certain people at certain times.... and some to carry out throughout the generations forever. I do believe the dietary laws are still in effect today though.

 

[MalikB]

About Sabbath preachers:

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

This is not speaking of Deu 28... keep studying

 

[MalikB]

Just read the letter to the Galatians. Or Romans. Or Paul's second letter to Timothy. You could also read the sermon on the mount. What is it about "new" that you do not understand?

I've already addressed the misinterpretations of those books (many times) that lead people to belive that Paul is teaching an abolished law.

"New covenant" does not equal "new law"

 

[Duckybill]

This is not speaking of Deu 28... keep studying

You don't even know what your Sabbath means! But you keep preaching it.

 

[Duckybill]

I've already addressed the misinterpretations of those books (many times) that lead people to belive that Paul is teaching an abolished law.

"New covenant" does not equal "new law"

So you're under the Law of Moses? Well I'm not and neither are any Christians!

 

[Jocund]

Jocund all things lawful murder 2 if i think its ok?

The covenant of the New Testament does not condone murder. I suggest you read the New Testament.