Replacement theology.

[Guojing]

Abraham isn’t coming back from heaven to live in Canaan.

In the first place, he is not in heaven now

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[KJV1611]

In the first place, he is not in heaven now

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Abraham and all the OldTestament saints are in heaven. Why would they not be? That’s a whole other argument.

 

[Guojing]

Abraham and all the OldTestament saints are in heaven. Why would they not be? That’s a whole other argument.

If they are, then those verses don't mean what they say?

 

[Journeyman]

I agree and that means that the land of the Jews isn’t the promised land. I also stand by my original thought which was that Abraham never set foot in the promised land because the promised land Abraham was looking for contained the city who’s builder and maker was God, that city is heavenly Jerusalem.

Well, the heavenly city is believers (Rev.21:2).

Its like how the OT says people will marvel at how "the land" that was laid waste has become like Eden. They're marveling at the change in us because of Jesus,

hou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. Isa.58:11

 

[KJV1611]

Well, the heavenly city is believers (Rev.21:2).

Its like how the OT says people will marvel at how "the land" that was laid waste has become like Eden. They're marveling at the change in us because of Jesus,

hou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. Isa.58:11

It’s interesting that none of the original children of Israel could enter into the promised land, it was only their children, the SECOND BORN and those who believed the account of TWO rather than the TEN could enter.

I think the “land of promise” was only an allegory for the promised land. In other words the land of Canaan was used to illustrate how believers are to reach the heavenly city, the promised land.

I have been totally blessed by the discussions on this thread, I’ve learned a lot.

 

[KJV1611]

If they are, then those verses don't mean what they say?

Yes they do mean what they said, Jesus said those things BEFORE he paid the price for their redemption.

 

[Guojing]

Yes they do mean what they said, Jesus said those things BEFORE he paid the price for their redemption.

Ahh, the common doctrine taught that OT saints all went to heaven after the cross.

Unfortunately for that doctrine, Acts 2:34 is after the cross. Peter is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KJV1611]

Ahh, the common doctrine taught that OT saints all went to heaven after the cross.

Unfortunately for that doctrine, Acts 2:34 is after the cross. Peter is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead earthy bodies, it’s about translating souls into heavenly bodies.

 

[Guojing]

The resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead earthy bodies, it’s about translating souls into heavenly bodies.

Peter was not clear enough for you when he stated that David is not ascended into the heavens?

So if you believe that those OT souls are in heaven now, is one of those souls called "David"?

 

[posthuman]

study the scripture

to what purpose?

 

[posthuman]

Ahh, the common doctrine taught that OT saints all went to heaven after the cross.

Unfortunately for that doctrine, Acts 2:34 is after the cross. Peter is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

did you notice in v. 31 he says David saw what was to come and spoke of Christ's resurrection - necessarily also seeing His death?
but isn't it correct that you say David had a 'different gospel' because, you say, he didn't know about the death & resurrection of the Messiah? Peter is explicitly contradicting that doctrine.

the context of v. 34 is that David himself is not the ascended lord spoken of in the psalm -- to the intent of establishing that David prophesied of Christ, not that David did not receive salvation.

 

[posthuman]

Peter was not clear enough for you when he stated that David is not ascended into the heavens?

So if you believe that those OT souls are in heaven now, is one of those souls called "David"?

it's not clear to me whether we will dwell in heaven or in the new earth. whether such a question of locality even makes sense. seems like we'll be able to pass between the two -- ascending and descending ((if that's even the right terminology in the resurrection)) i imagine, on THE LADDER, which is, Christ.

eternity is timeless. a lot of anthropomorphisms we apply in our thinking today on the subject, i think will seem inane to us later when we come to know fully what He has stored up for us. it's like trying to talk about 11 dimensional geometry while the only world you've ever known is 2d - we barely have conception much less language for it

 

[Guojing]

to what purpose?

to shew thyself approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15)

 

[Guojing]

did you notice in v. 31 he says David saw what was to come and spoke of Christ's resurrection - necessarily also seeing His death?
but isn't it correct that you say David had a 'different gospel' because, you say, he didn't know about the death & resurrection of the Messiah? Peter is explicitly contradicting that doctrine.

the context of v. 34 is that David himself is not the ascended lord spoken of in the psalm -- to the intent of establishing that David prophesied of Christ, not that David did not receive salvation.

As I said, David, like all the OT saints, has Israel's destiny, which will take place in the 2nd coming of Christ for Israel.

When Jesus returns for Israel in the 2nd coming, all these OT saints, including Abraham, will be resurrected and live permanently in the millennial kingdom on Earth.

The 12 of course will be on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel then.

 

[Guojing]

it's not clear to me whether we will dwell in heaven or in the new earth. whether such a question of locality even makes sense. seems like we'll be able to pass between the two -- ascending and descending ((if that's even the right terminology in the resurrection)) i imagine, on THE LADDER, which is, Christ.

eternity is timeless. a lot of anthropomorphisms we apply in our thinking today on the subject, i think will seem inane to us later when we come to know fully what He has stored up for us. it's like trying to talk about 11 dimensional geometry while the only world you've ever known is 2d - we barely have conception much less language for it

As for the Body of Christ, our destiny, unlike Israel, will be in the 3rd heaven.

My personal belief is that the Body of Christ will replace all the fallen angels there. (1 Corinthians 6:3)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im not the one who wants it both ways. You want the promises God made to apply to the Jews apart from faith in Jesus. Don't work that way,

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal.3:7

Ignore, sidestep, divert, whatever.

So you will be like your pal and lie about MY belief also. You know it gets to the point where yu have nothing left when you have to resort to lies.

please show me where I said an unbelieving Jew will be returned to their land, and how they can be restored apart fro faith?

if your gonna make an accusation back it up

as for the rest of the mess you posted, we have already established that that birth by faith is directed at in you shall all the nations be blessed,

Not I give you the land to this one child and all his physical descendants,

Your the one trying to make the land promise and blessing to all nations promise one thing not me,

if they are the same, by application, then every physical descendent is saved, because the promise in this case was made to them

you can’t have it both ways my friend,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah it is. The unsaved are just living in it until our King shows them who really owns it.

No actually my king is going to destroy this world and create for us a new one. One that has never been tainted with sin

but hey, if you’re u want this one, maybe God can give it to you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As for abd not giving Abraham the land.

Gen 13: 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your [c]descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, thenyour descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

abraham received his land, he lived in it,

he also was told that his descendents would not recieve it for 400 years because the sin of the amorite was not yet complete

Gen 15: 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that isnot theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

abraham also never complained he never received it

 

[luigi]

So you are saying when Paul stated Gentiles, he actually only meant specifically the Ephesians and not any other gentiles?

Gentiles are non believers. When Paul stated Gentiles it refers to all who do not believe in God, which included the Ephesians. And faith in God does not include belief in many gods.

 

[Guojing]

Gentiles are non believers. When Paul stated Gentiles it refers to all who do not believe in God, which included the Ephesians. And faith in God does not include belief in many gods.

So if you want to argue that Ephesians 2:11-12 should be linked to that passage in Ephesians 2:1-2 , are you saying that the circumcised, Israel, on the other hand, had hope in leaving off sinning prior to Christ's sacrifice?

Because that would be a silly lesson to draw.