Replacement theology? Yes or No.

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Isa 11:11-12 has already happened starting with Judah's return to the land from Babylon and continuing with the outcasts (lost sheep) of Israel's return for centuries afterward culminating at Pentecost.

Prophesied

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11:11-12​
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Fulfilled
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And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5​
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Acts 2:8-11​
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Here is the verse before it for more context:

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

These 3000 Jewish men were returned to Jerusalem from many lands where their families had lived since the captivity.
They no doubt would have brought the gospel also to their families.
All these Jewish Christians would continue to marry among Christians and not identify as Jews.
So how do we pretend to know the true identity of Paul's kinsmen in Romans 11?
 
As I was meditating on the things that are siad here it occurred to me that these post and conversations being discussed would be appropriate prior 1948.
With Israel becoming in one day a nation as scripture tells it one should consider there position.
1948 should be a realty check for some to aline there eschatology according.
Prior to this date and evidence we would have been on more even ground.
No where in scripture have I've read of a false Israel or a replaced Israel. In fact scripture shows a future redeeming of Israel.
So in order to have that happen a Israel would have to emerge.
Now some here suggest that it was a forced conspiracy to bring about political change and events.
Disregarding what God and the prophets foretold.
People who preach replacement theology have no clue as to what the Bible says and who God is.
The jews have been saddled with the killing of Christ but to be honest here that should only anger Christians, but if the Christian God can be murdered by men than what kind of God is that? If Palestine remained Palestine would the God of the Hebrews be at home on the temple mount? Why did the Muslims brick up the very gate that the prophets siad the Messiah would enter in his return.
Why was the capital of israel changed to Jerusalem? How many wars has Israel lost since being established?
Could go on here for quite a time but in my simple mind it seems God is not replacing Israel but rather using it to bring about his will.
 
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God-fearing said:
As I was meditating on the things that are siad here it occurred to me that these post and conversations being discussed would be appropriate prior 1948.
With Israel becoming in one day a nation as scripture tells it one should consider there position.
1948 should be a realty check for some to aline there eschatology according.
Prior to this date and evidence we would have been on more even ground.
Click to expand...

Australia day happened on the 28th of January 1788 when a fleet of British ships arrived in Sydney cove.
They put up a flag, had a party and called it a nation founded in a day.
Of course they were not intending to fulfill any prophesy.
Not the case with the May 14th 1948 because modern Israel's declaration of independence was well planned with an out of context fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8 in mind.
The second Temple restoration of Israel involved many miracles, and it also meant a restoration of the people to God.
1948 when compared to this was a much more ordinary affair.

God-fearing said:
No where in scripture have I've read of a false Israel or a replaced Israel. In fact scripture shows a future redeeming of Israel.
Click to expand...

Have you read Galatians 4:22-28?
If "Jerusalem which now is" is compared to the intended fulfillment of prophesy in the birth of Ishmael, is that the same thing as fake?
It is worth considering that "Israel" is a very precious name in the Bible, and modern Israel may appear under other names.

God-fearing said:
The jews have been saddled with the killing of Christ but to be honest here that should only anger Christians, but if the Christian God can be murdered by men than what kind of God is that?
Click to expand...

Jesus-fully God and fully man- was "made of a woman, made under the law" Galatians 4:4.
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15.
Jesus did not place the thorns on His own head, drive in the spikes, whip Himself and lift up the cross or piece His own side.
As God He cannot be murdered, but as a man?
Yes, He was murdered and consequently a lot of Sunday School teachers will have to lose their jobs.
Matthew 27:25
"Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."
Sorry, the truth is the truth.

God-fearing said:
If Palestine remained Palestine would the God of the Hebrews be at home on the temple mount?
Click to expand...

He is not.
Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Jesus is the third temple.
He will bring heavenly Jerusalem when He comes.
All we see now will be destroyed.
 
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God-fearing said:
As I was meditating on the things that are siad here it occurred to me that these post and conversations being discussed would be appropriate prior 1948.
With Israel becoming in one day a nation as scripture tells it one should consider there position.
1948 should be a realty check for some to aline there eschatology according.
Prior to this date and evidence we would have been on more even ground.
No where in scripture have I've read of a false Israel or a replaced Israel. In fact scripture shows a future redeeming of Israel.
So in order to have that happen a Israel would have to emerge.
Now some here suggest that it was a forced conspiracy to bring about political change and events.
Disregarding what God and the prophets foretold.
People who preach replacement theology have no clue as to what the Bible says and who God is.
The jews have been saddled with the killing of Christ but to be honest here that should only anger Christians, but if the Christian God can be murdered by men than what kind of God is that? If Palestine remained Palestine would the God of the Hebrews be at home on the temple mount? Why did the Muslims brick up the very gate that the prophets siad the Messiah would enter in his return.
Why was the capital of israel changed to Jerusalem? How many wars has Israel lost since being established?
Could go on here for quite a time but in my simple mind it seems God is not replacing Israel but rather using it to bring about his will.
Click to expand...
Scripture does not need to specify a 'false' Israel for you to be able to recognize it.

To identify a counterfeit, you only need to be very well acquainted with the original real item.

Scripture identifies 'true' biblical Israel. And, if you study with care and wisdom, you should clearly see that modern-day Israel (1948) does not match what is in scripture. The details are important - all of them. And, part of the details is the timing relative to other things.

God can use anything to bring about His will - including modern-day Israel. However, that does not mean that it is 'true' biblical Israel.

What I said earlier about the middle of the scale (post #404) works for the thread topic also - both sides of this issue are part right and part wrong - the truth is in the middle of the scale.

I also indicated in post #530 that Israel has not been "replaced" - be careful to not confuse the [New] Covenant with the existence of the nation of Israel.
 
This issue is not nearly as complicated as people tend to make it.

What has been replaced is the Covenant - the Old has been replaced with the New.

With regard to the nation of Israel - there will not be a 'New'; rather, the 'Old' will be "reinstated" for/in the Millennium - with all of the saints from the past who were a part of it. (original Israel)
 
Ezekial 37:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Verses 12-14 are talking about original Old Testament Israel being brought back into existence as a nation once again. Jesus Himself will fulfill the Dry Bones prophecy upon His return - the Second Coming of Christ - to start His 1000-year reign upon the earth.
 
See? Problem solved. Just read scripture and believe what it really actually says...

Again - do not confuse the [New] Covenant with the nation of Israel.
 
When you learn to separate all of these things - which are separate - and, just believe what the Bible says - this 'phantom' issue fades into the 'nothing' that it really is.
 
That is where most of these kinds of "issues" come from - folks overlooking/ignoring what scripture is really actually saying - and, having too much pride to admit (to themselves, even) that it is actually possible that they just might not be understanding it properly - because, they overlooked something or ignored something that they just need to open their eyes more (with the Lord's help) to be able to see...
 
GaryA said:
Ezekial 37:

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Verses 12-14 are talking about original Old Testament Israel being brought back into existence as a nation once again. Jesus Himself will fulfill the Dry Bones prophecy upon His return - the Second Coming of Christ - to start His 1000-year reign upon the earth.
Click to expand...
Now you know/understand why modern-day Israel cannot possibly be 'true' biblical 'prophetic' Israel - that is, 'prophetic' in a modern-day timeframe.
 
GaryA said:
When you learn to separate all of these things - which are separate - and, just believe what the Bible says - this 'phantom' issue fades into the 'nothing' that it really is.
Click to expand...
What "phantom issue"?

Luk 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

CHURCH AGE

************************************************************************

AND THEN:

Luk 17:24
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luk 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:31
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

SECOND COMING
 
GaryA said:
Scripture does not need to specify a 'false' Israel for you to be able to recognize it.

To identify a counterfeit, you only need to be very well acquainted with the original real item.

Scripture identifies 'true' biblical Israel. And, if you study with care and wisdom, you should clearly see that modern-day Israel (1948) does not match what is in scripture. The details are important - all of them. And, part of the details is the timing relative to other things.

God can use anything to bring about His will - including modern-day Israel. However, that does not mean that it is 'true' biblical Israel.

What I said earlier about the middle of the scale (post #404) works for the thread topic also - both sides of this issue are part right and part wrong - the truth is in the middle of the scale.

I also indicated in post #530 that Israel has not been "replaced" - be careful to not confuse the [New] Covenant with the existence of the nation of Israel.
Click to expand...
Just to let you know, there is undoubtedly a double fulfillment here:

[Act 2:16-21 KJV]
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

THAT IS JUST ROUND ONE, A PARTIAL FULFILLMENT
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ROUND TWO, THE FINALE

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Joel's prophecy is more than a double fulfillment. It hasn't stopped being fulfilled since it started nearly 2000 years ago at Pentecost. The earthly wonders and signs are just a small and insignificant part of that by comparison
 
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