Rapture true or false

[Psalm1]

Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".

The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.

The Jesuits creating what they call, the "Gap theory" being a 7 years of tribulation at these end of days. NOT True !! Yeah ! There will be tribulations coming SOON, and Jesus, like he says, will come, in the clouds, at the end of days.



The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )

1. The Text in Revelation 14:14 (KJV)

“And I looked, and, lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having a golden crown, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”​

The image of “one sat like the Son of Man” on a white cloud, crowned and holding a sickle, is unmistakably a portrait of the returning Messiah.

2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent

Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world.

Acts 1:11 – “He shall come again… in the same manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
The apostles were told that Christ would return in the same way He ascended—on a cloud. Rev 14:14 shows Him already seated on a cloud, fulfilling that promise.

Matthew 24:30 – “...the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven…”Jesus Himself describes His return from the clouds, matching the vision of Rev 14:14.

Zechariah 14:4‑5 – “His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives… and the LORD shall be king over all the earth.”
This Old‑Testament prophecy of the Messiah standing on a mount (or cloud) in the end‑times is echoed in the Revelation scene.

1 Thessalonians 4:16‑17 – “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… with a shout… the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
The descent “from heaven” and the gathering of the elect are consistent with the crowning and judging posture of the figure in Rev 14:14.

These passages together create a clear biblical pattern: Christ will return visibly from the heavens, on a cloud, as the glorified “Son of Man,” to execute judgment. Rev 14:14 fits precisely within that pattern.

QUOTE
"The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )"

Way off.
Romans 9-11 CLEARLY prophesies the Jews grafted back in.
It is UNMISTAKABLE.

IF you are part of the 144k then you are a ethnic Jew.
What tribe are you?

I see this so often.
Your end times position, is Clearly Embraced VIA OMISSION.
IF you include Ruth, Ester, the wayward wife Gomer, and romans 9-11 all that replacement theology will be cast down.
It is 100% anti Bible.

By taking that road of error, you can not embrace the plain truth of the Jewish 144k gathering.
By the "firstfruits" designation alone , your position has TWO FIRSTFRUITS!!!!!
A 2 headed monster Created through the error of replacement theology.

The 144k CAN ONLY BE FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
Nothing else fits.
They literally can not be firstfruits of Jesus's church gathering. ( ahem...Jesus ALONE is ascribed that position)
We ARE NOT firstfruits!!! That position is gone. Jesus already took it.
Really? You have no teaching on harvest?
It Impossible to ascribe church harvest to the 144k. IT CAN NEVER FIT in a million years.
So the replacement theology student LITTERALLY HAS NO PLACE TO GO WITH THE 144K.
See where that position leads you??????
Now you have to mentally "come up" with a willy nilly hasty explaining away of a KEY COMPONENT, AND cast down Romans 9-11.

 

[Psalm1]

Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".

The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.

The Jesuits creating what they call, the "Gap theory" being a 7 years of tribulation at these end of days. NOT True !! Yeah ! There will be tribulations coming SOON, and Jesus, like he says, will come, in the clouds, at the end of days.



The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )

1. The Text in Revelation 14:14 (KJV)

“And I looked, and, lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having a golden crown, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”​

The image of “one sat like the Son of Man” on a white cloud, crowned and holding a sickle, is unmistakably a portrait of the returning Messiah.

2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent

Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world.

Acts 1:11 – “He shall come again… in the same manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
The apostles were told that Christ would return in the same way He ascended—on a cloud. Rev 14:14 shows Him already seated on a cloud, fulfilling that promise.

Matthew 24:30 – “...the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven…”Jesus Himself describes His return from the clouds, matching the vision of Rev 14:14.

Zechariah 14:4‑5 – “His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives… and the LORD shall be king over all the earth.”
This Old‑Testament prophecy of the Messiah standing on a mount (or cloud) in the end‑times is echoed in the Revelation scene.

1 Thessalonians 4:16‑17 – “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… with a shout… the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
The descent “from heaven” and the gathering of the elect are consistent with the crowning and judging posture of the figure in Rev 14:14.

These passages together create a clear biblical pattern: Christ will return visibly from the heavens, on a cloud, as the glorified “Son of Man,” to execute judgment. Rev 14:14 fits precisely within that pattern.

QUOTE
""The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.""


Now, lay aside your replacement teachers for a moment and DO RE READ Daniel 9.

"26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Who is the "people of the prince", that destroys the city?

" and he shall confirm a covenant..."
Ahem...the evil prince.

Your misplacement of God's word has Jesus destroying Jerusalem and using "his people" to do it.....then some seven yr covenant where Jesus makes desolate the Holy Of Holies.
Huh?

So ridiculous where your teachers have lead you.

Invoking jesuits desperately, will only show your lack of knowledge.

Most all uninformed "students" of the bible sling all kinds of silly labels around as if they know some magic bible formulas ( jesuits, dispensation, and about 20 other uninformed diversions) , when it is actually a smoke screen, hoping to mask their grand canyon ridiculous leaps of error.
Which of course is extra biblical.

 

[Psalm1]

Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".

The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.

The Jesuits creating what they call, the "Gap theory" being a 7 years of tribulation at these end of days. NOT True !! Yeah ! There will be tribulations coming SOON, and Jesus, like he says, will come, in the clouds, at the end of days.



The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )

1. The Text in Revelation 14:14 (KJV)

“And I looked, and, lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having a golden crown, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”​

The image of “one sat like the Son of Man” on a white cloud, crowned and holding a sickle, is unmistakably a portrait of the returning Messiah.

2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent

Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world.

Acts 1:11 – “He shall come again… in the same manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
The apostles were told that Christ would return in the same way He ascended—on a cloud. Rev 14:14 shows Him already seated on a cloud, fulfilling that promise.

Matthew 24:30 – “...the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven…”Jesus Himself describes His return from the clouds, matching the vision of Rev 14:14.

Zechariah 14:4‑5 – “His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives… and the LORD shall be king over all the earth.”
This Old‑Testament prophecy of the Messiah standing on a mount (or cloud) in the end‑times is echoed in the Revelation scene.

1 Thessalonians 4:16‑17 – “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… with a shout… the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
The descent “from heaven” and the gathering of the elect are consistent with the crowning and judging posture of the figure in Rev 14:14.

These passages together create a clear biblical pattern: Christ will return visibly from the heavens, on a cloud, as the glorified “Son of Man,” to execute judgment. Rev 14:14 fits precisely within that pattern.

QUOTE:
""2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent
Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world""

Excuse me.
We can all see Jesus sitting on a cloud, is not, nor can ever be, the same thing as millions of horses blackening the sky WITH JESUS SITTING ON ONE.

See where false doctrine has taken you???
You now believe, and celebrate, that Jesus sitting on a cloud is the exact same thing as Jesus sitting on a horse.

Wow...truly bizarre.

But I do realize painting yourself into a corner is what was done to you by a lack of bible knowledge combined with false teachers you follow.
Teachers will make a fool out of you.

 

[Psalm1]

Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".

The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.

The Jesuits creating what they call, the "Gap theory" being a 7 years of tribulation at these end of days. NOT True !! Yeah ! There will be tribulations coming SOON, and Jesus, like he says, will come, in the clouds, at the end of days.



The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )

1. The Text in Revelation 14:14 (KJV)

“And I looked, and, lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having a golden crown, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”​

The image of “one sat like the Son of Man” on a white cloud, crowned and holding a sickle, is unmistakably a portrait of the returning Messiah.

2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent

Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world.

Acts 1:11 – “He shall come again… in the same manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
The apostles were told that Christ would return in the same way He ascended—on a cloud. Rev 14:14 shows Him already seated on a cloud, fulfilling that promise.

Matthew 24:30 – “...the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven…”Jesus Himself describes His return from the clouds, matching the vision of Rev 14:14.

Zechariah 14:4‑5 – “His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives… and the LORD shall be king over all the earth.”
This Old‑Testament prophecy of the Messiah standing on a mount (or cloud) in the end‑times is echoed in the Revelation scene.

1 Thessalonians 4:16‑17 – “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… with a shout… the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
The descent “from heaven” and the gathering of the elect are consistent with the crowning and judging posture of the figure in Rev 14:14.

These passages together create a clear biblical pattern: Christ will return visibly from the heavens, on a cloud, as the glorified “Son of Man,” to execute judgment. Rev 14:14 fits precisely within that pattern.

QUOTE
""Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".""

No need to forgive that which I reversed on your head, what you ignorantly ascribed.
Maybe now you see inverting Daniel's words by your teachers is ignorant indeed.

 

[WiselyWoven]

"Great tribulation" does not appear in scripture.

and

Of course it does.

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Thank you for proving my point.

In a subtle attempt to float the false doctrine of pre-tribulationalism (actually, it's dispensationalism), you have changed the scriptural "great" to the unscriptural "Great".

 

[ewq1938]

and

Thank you for proving my point.

In a subtle attempt to float the false doctrine of pre-tribulationalism (actually, it's dispensationalism), you have changed the scriptural "great" to the unscriptural "Great".

There's no such thing as small vs large letters in biblical Greek. They are all the same size.

 

[KeithAB]

Did Paul teach the rapture, or have we been deceived by false teaching?​

1st Thessalonians 4.13. That I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others who have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
These 6 verses have become some of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. They are used to form a doctrine that is not taught by Jesus. God addressed this back in the Old Testament in the book of Ezekiel chapter 13 where He says, “I am against Those who teach my people to fly to save their souls.”
Verse 13, I would not have you ignorant [meaning to be without proper understanding of a subject] what does Paul not want the believers at the church Thessalonica to be ignorant or without the proper knowledge about? Those that have passed on and gone to be with the Lord. He wants to teach those in Thessalonica and us today how to comfort someone or ourselves that has lost a loved one.
Verse 14 If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we have the comfort of knowing if that loved one that believed that Jesus died and rose again, they are in heaven right now with God, the saints, and every believer that has gone before us. Their body is in the ground but their spirit, soul, is alive and well with God waiting to be reunited with us again forever.
15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Those of us that are here on earth to see Jesus return in the same manner in which He was taken can’t stop those that have died and were believers on Jesus from going to be with Him. Ecclesiastes 12 6. or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the system. 7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead in Christ: Those that have gone on before us and will return with Jesus to set up the millennial kingdom
17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We which are alive at the return of Jesus shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye into spiritual bodies and taken to the Valley made By Jesus when His foot touches it Mount of Olives just as the angles told the disciples as they watched Jesus go into heaven.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Use the facts that our loved ones in the Lord are in paradise and at the return of Jesus we will be reunited with them for ever in heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Did Paul teach the rapture, or have we been deceived by false teaching?​

You just quoted Paul teaching the rapture.

 

[Me_Clay]

You just quoted Paul teaching the rapture.

You can ask me anything about rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

You can ask me anything about rapture.

Why would I do that?

 

[Me_Clay]

Why would I do that?

I am ready when you're.

Kind regards
Clay

 

[ewq1938]

I am ready when you're.

Kind regards
Clay

Not even close.

 

[Psalm1]

Did Paul teach the rapture, or have we been deceived by false teaching?​

1st Thessalonians 4.13. That I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others who have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
These 6 verses have become some of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. They are used to form a doctrine that is not taught by Jesus. God addressed this back in the Old Testament in the book of Ezekiel chapter 13 where He says, “I am against Those who teach my people to fly to save their souls.”
Verse 13, I would not have you ignorant [meaning to be without proper understanding of a subject] what does Paul not want the believers at the church Thessalonica to be ignorant or without the proper knowledge about? Those that have passed on and gone to be with the Lord. He wants to teach those in Thessalonica and us today how to comfort someone or ourselves that has lost a loved one.
Verse 14 If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we have the comfort of knowing if that loved one that believed that Jesus died and rose again, they are in heaven right now with God, the saints, and every believer that has gone before us. Their body is in the ground but their spirit, soul, is alive and well with God waiting to be reunited with us again forever.
15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Those of us that are here on earth to see Jesus return in the same manner in which He was taken can’t stop those that have died and were believers on Jesus from going to be with Him. Ecclesiastes 12 6. or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the system. 7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead in Christ: Those that have gone on before us and will return with Jesus to set up the millennial kingdom
17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We which are alive at the return of Jesus shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye into spiritual bodies and taken to the Valley made By Jesus when His foot touches it Mount of Olives just as the angles told the disciples as they watched Jesus go into heaven.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Use the facts that our loved ones in the Lord are in paradise and at the return of Jesus we will be reunited with them for ever in heaven.

1) there are 3 different comings taught in the bible.
You skip it.
2) there are 2 escape verses REFERRING TO THE GT in the bible
You skip it.
3) the baby Jesus and Lot "flew away" from tribulation.
4) in your mind a solo Jesus rising casually in peacetime and normal everyday life ( acts 1 you quoted)...is the exact same thing, as a warrior Jesus SITTING ON A HORSE WITH A SWORD IN HIS MOUTH, WITH MILLIONS OF SAINTS ON HORSES.
5) IN the "One taken" of mat 24, they are saints. (1/2 of the church), taken to heaven in the pretrib rapture.
Those left behind are beheaded.
Those taken, as JESUS DECLARED, ARE TAKEN BEFORE THE FLOOD.
You skipped it.
6) in Rev 14:14, we see a Jewish only rapture.
No postrib can explain it. Neither can they comprehend, Jesus on a cloud, HOLDING A SICKLE, is not Jesus on a horse with a sword.
ALL POSTRIBS LEAVE IT OUT. WHEN CHALLENGED, THEY CHANGE IT INTO THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH.

Your doctrine is totally filled with holes.

Tired old postribber talking points.
So many omission. No honest approach, Just slight of hand changes of scripture, and Total disregard of Jesus words.
Omit, omit, change verses, ...repeat.
Then attack with non bible nothingburgers. Name calling, unable to go toe to toe in honest debate.

 

[Psalm1]

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jesus shall deliver the kingdom up to God in heaven which is the resurrection.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Then Jesus comes back with all the saints and fights the world and defeats them and saves Israel.

The battle of Armageddon.

The saints had to be caught up to heaven to come back with Jesus.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the
LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

The same thing here the saints come back with Jesus.

The battle of Armageddon.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This is the same thing and it states Jesus is in heaven and the saints are there in heaven.

And the saints follow Jesus from heaven to earth where He defeats the world.

The battle of Armageddon.

So Jesus delivered up the kingdom to God in heaven the resurrection.

Then Jesus came back with all the saints from heaven.

If they come back with Jesus they must of been resurrected.

Yes.
So clear what Jesus taught.
A pretrib rapture to heaven.

All of end times is summed up in the bride and the bride groom. That is why Jesus, in his mighty word, ended the bible, with the "spirit and the bride calling out to Jesus to come take her away".

O have NEVER seen a postribber elaborate or bring forward the bride and groom dynamic.

All end times is framed in the bride of Christ united with Jesus.
The main ingredient of end times, and EVERY POSTRIBBER is sidetracked, completely focused on suffering through the trib.....with Jesus nowhere in sight.

Just plain bizarre and inexcusable.

 

[Psalm1]

The rapture is a non-Bible word, like Trinity, that is coined to describe a teaching, prophecy, event.

Specifically the rapture, I believe, is the resurrection and ascension to meet the Lord in the air, all at one moment of time.

However, the resurrection and immortal change of the saints on earth, is the only event that is specifically said to be in the twinkle of the eye.

If Jesus' own ascension in the sight of His disciples, as well as that of the two witnesses in the sight of all the people of the earth, is an example. Then when the Lord comes again, there's no reason why all the resurrected and changed saints on earth, won't also be seen ascending together to meet the Lord in the air.

1) show me where all the earth saw Jesus ascend in Acts 1.
2) you left out in 1 these 4 that ONLY those that died in Christ are resurrected.
3) there is very little conflict with your post and what pretribbers believe.

The main dead horse for postribbers are the 3 DISTINCT AND CLEAR "comings" TAUGHT BY JESUS.

No postrib can honestly engage that dynamic.

The other dynamic is the FACT ALL DIE REFUSING THE MARK.

You can not POSSIBLY erase those bible facts.
But your teachers do!!!!!
The bible is a doctrine destroyer.

 

[Psalm1]

You can ask me anything about rapture.

What is your position?
What doctrine are you teaching?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

I don't know about you, but clouds to me are up in the sky, not here on the earth. It also says, "Into the air". Air is all around us, so obviously it does not mean air at ground level.

That's what most Christians believe with respect to the word rapture in the context of Christ's return. Feel free to avoid the rapture.
Hebrews 9:28
"....so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him." I have no desire whatsoever to spend one moment longer on this earth than I absolutely must.

What is that salvation? It is the transformation of our bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:51.

“I don't know about you, but clouds to me are up in the sky, not here on the earth. It also says, "Into the air". Air is all around us, so obviously it does not mean air at ground level. “

i have no issue with that happening at all .

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. …..

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42, 44, 51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“That's what most Christians believe with respect to the word rapture in the context of Christ's return. Feel free to avoid the rapture.”

im not trying to avoid Christs return when he raises the dead and gathers his people at all . Just stating a fact about the word “rapture “ not being a biblical term . Unless you speak Latin.

It’s true what you say though a lot of Christian’s call Jesus return when he get here his people “ the rapture “

heres

rap·ture
/ˈrap(t)SHər/

noun

1. 
   
2. 1.
   a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.
   "Leonora listened with rapture"
   
   That’s the English definition of the word and here’s what you’re saying ….
   2(according to some millenarianteaching) the transporting of believersto heaven at the Second Coming of Christ.)
   

that’s all I was ever saying the word “ rapture “ isn’t a biblical term in English language . But won’t it be a moment of “rapture “ when Jesus comes to gather his people and fulfill his promises ?

In Latin I’m saying gonna be “ raptured by the lord “ …..in English I’m saying “ gonna be caught up or “ seized “ by the lord “

because that’s what the Latin word “ rapture” means in English. I was never lol “ avoiding or denying “ Jesus return or what the Bible says about it and gathering his people.

It’s just an aftermarket word people applied in the wrong language probably so they could easier argue “ pre trib rapture ? Post trib rapture”

I don’t disagree people use that term to describe what’s going to happen when Jesus returns at the end

 

[ATG]

1) show me where all the earth saw Jesus ascend in Acts 1.

?? Show me where I say so.

All the people of the earth will see Jesus returning through the sky with clouds in Rev 1, and also the two witnesses ascending with a cloud in Rev 11.

Since the Scripture only speaks of two bodily resurrections and ascensions on this earth, first that of Jesus Himself in Acts 1, and then all His people at His return in 1 Thess 4, then I would conclude that Rev 11 is speaking of the rapture of all OT and NT saints, with the two witnesses specifically mentioned.

With the Lord Jesus' return to the earth, the people of God will all resurrect and immortally change at once in a blink of the eye. Then they will all ascend together with clouds into the air. Then His legions of angels will escort the rising saints to Him, from all corners of the sky. (Matthew 24)

2) you left out in 1 these 4 that ONLY those that died in Christ are resurrected.

That's included when speaking of all the resurrected and changed saints will meet Him in the air at His return to earth. They will be all the OT and NT saints up to the hour of His coming again. And they will not all have died in Christ, for there will be those that are alive and remain on earth at His appearing.

1Th 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

3) there is very little conflict with your post and what pretribbers believe.

Why should there be?? I certainly believe that the Scriptures prophecy His return to earth, first specifically to resurrect all His saints to meet Him in the air.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Only then does He send His great tribulation and wrath upon the remaining inhabitors of the earth.

The conclusion of which will be the Lamb of God and His glorified saints descending from the air, to swiftly destroy all the armies of the nations, that have gathered against Him at Armageddon of Judea.

No faithful child of God on earth will have to endure the wrath of the Lamb of God upon the children of disobedience on all the earth. They will be taken out of the way, because they are not appointed to the His wrath, as are the hardened and unrepentant ungodly.

The main dead horse for postribbers are the 3 DISTINCT AND CLEAR "comings" TAUGHT BY JESUS.

If you mean that no one remaining oink earth after the rapture of God's people, will be saved during His wrath, then no, there is no saving grace given during that time. The Lord always comes to save, but He certainly will destroy them that are warned and repent not. At His coming He again, He will come to first save His own people from His own wrath upon all the earth...

However, that certainly does not mean, that there is no tribulation and wrath on earth, before He comes again. Since Cain slew Abel, there has always been tribulation and wrath of the man upon God's people. In fact, we are promised such tribulation to endure unto the end:
Matth 13:20
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Jhn 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

With the rise of the last great antichrist on earth, there will be worldwide tribulation and wrath of man upon the godly saints of Jesus Christ. The Lord Himself will return to end it by taking His remaining faithful people out of the way, to be with Himself in the air.

Mat 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So, in a way, the resurrection and rapture of the churches of God at Jesus' return to earth, is a kind of mid-tribulation departure: Post-tribulation of man's wrath, which is ongoing, and pretribulation of the Lamb's wrath, which will be after the rapture.

The other dynamic is the FACT ALL DIE REFUSING THE MARK.

This is not possible, since there will be those faithful saints remaining alive on earth at Jesus' return, who would endure the beast's temptations and persecutions, but are not yet killed before our Lord's return.

1 Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Perhaps what you mean is, that no godly child of God will continue to endure the tribulation and wrath of man, and the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb at the same time.

The last tribulation and wrath of man upon the saints (which began with Cain slaying Abel), will abruptly end with the resurrection and immortal changing of all the living and dead saints of God. And once they ascend into the air with angel escorts to Jesus Himself, only then will He begin to rain down His own tribulation of great wrath upon all the ungodly inhabitants of the earth.

You can not POSSIBLY erase those bible facts.
But your teachers do!!!!!
The bible is a doctrine destroyer.

You obviously are responding to the wrong post or something. You should try to read what people say more carefully, before responding. A good beginning is to read the Bible more carefully before trying to teach what the Lord God says.

 

[ewq1938]

“I don't know about you, but clouds to me are up in the sky, not here on the earth. It also says, "Into the air". Air is all around us, so obviously it does not mean air at ground level. “

i have no issue with that happening at all .

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. …..

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42, 44, 51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“That's what most Christians believe with respect to the word rapture in the context of Christ's return. Feel free to avoid the rapture.”

im not trying to avoid Christs return when he raises the dead and gathers his people at all . Just stating a fact about the word “rapture “ not being a biblical term . Unless you speak Latin.

It’s true what you say though a lot of Christian’s call Jesus return when he get here his people “ the rapture “

heres

rap·ture
/ˈrap(t)SHər/

noun

1. 
   
2. 1.
   a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.
   "Leonora listened with rapture"
   
   That’s the English definition of the word and here’s what you’re saying ….
   2(according to some millenarianteaching) the transporting of believersto heaven at the Second Coming of Christ.)

that’s all I was ever saying the word “ rapture “ isn’t a biblical term in English language .

Yes it is. The word means more than just what you are focusing on. You are ignoring the second definition.

“2 (the Rapture) N. Amer. (according to some millenarian teaching) the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ.”

That's exactly what harpazo means in the Greek. The rapture is biblical and the word is found in the bible multiple times.

 

[Rob7]

QUOTE
Way off.
Romans 9-11 CLEARLY prophesies the Jews grafted back in.
It is UNMISTAKABLE.

HERE Ya Go friend ... If you'll follow these Biblical Scriptural verses of "reasoning" ... LOGIC sequence;

The Covenant Was Conditional

1. Exodus 19:5–6 – “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure…”
2. Deuteronomy 28:1–2, 15 – Blessings and curses based on obedience.
3. Jeremiah 11:3–4, 10 – “Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant… they are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers…”

National Rejection of Christ

1. John 1:11 – “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
2. Luke 19:41–44 – Jesus weeps over Jerusalem, foretelling its destruction due to not recognizing “the time of thy visitation.”
3. Matthew 21:43 – “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

The Outward Signs Lost Their Power

1. Daniel 9:26–27 – The Messiah will “cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” ( NOT THE Antichrist + and NO 7 yrs of tribulation)
2. Hebrews 10:1–10 – The sacrificial system was a shadow of Christ’s offering; with His sacrifice, it became obsolete.
3. Matthew 23:38 – “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Modern Jews Are Not Spiritual Israel

1. Romans 2:28–29 – “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly…”
2. Galatians 3:28–29 – “If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
3. Romans 9:6–8 – “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel…”

The Sabbath and Covenant

1. Exodus 31:16–17 – “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath… for a perpetual covenant.”
2. Isaiah 56:2–6 – Promises to the foreigner who keeps the Sabbath and holds fast God’s covenant.
3. Ezekiel 20:12, 20 – “Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them…”

Continued Responsibility to Evangelize

1. Romans 1:16 – “To the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
2. Romans 10:1 – “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.”
3. Acts 13:46–47 – Paul and Barnabas preached first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles after rejection.

Reverence for Their Past

1. Romans 3:1–2 – “What advantage then hath the Jew?… unto them were committed the oracles of God.”
2. Romans 9:4–5 – “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants… and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came…”
3. Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets…”

Each of these verses harmonize with the theme, that it is we "True Christians, who are those who are IN Christ, Gal 2:20 ... and by FAITH, are Spiritual Israel, now... receiving ALL the promises, conferred to us, in the New Testament, including being the Church. Christ's Body of The Book of Revelation.

We are described as "the women" in Rev 12, ... particularly v17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." .... AND in .... Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

So ! As you see, if you are not keeping God's Commandments, including God's 7th Day Sabbath, His Mark of Authority, then "whomsoever" doesn't meet these requirements of "Loving Jesus" Matt 22:37, therefore having the Righteousness of Christ, will NOT be His Body, His Church or His Bride, when He Coming ,,, SOON !!!

God’s covenant was never meant to be inherited by lineage alone, but through faith and obedience to Christ.
Blessing Friend. ... I Pray you'll realize that ALL your other objections to Scriptural Truth will fall apart, if you'll realize this one TRUTH., one WAY, to the one Life.