Rapture true or false

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(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)
I stopped reading your (elsewhere posted) screed at this point, because your scriptural references don't support your "take them to heaven" claim. But hey, the list looks impressive, and most folks are too lazy to actually read them and compare scripture with scripture. That's why the pre-trib rapture lie gets such traction.
 
I stopped reading your (elsewhere posted) screed at this point, because your scriptural references don't support your "take them to heaven" claim. But hey, the list looks impressive, and most folks are too lazy to actually read them and compare scripture with scripture. That's why the pre-trib rapture lie gets such traction.
If you do not want to be taken up to miss the coming tribulation, you are going about it the right way. Me, I have no intention of hanging around to see who the antichrist is.
 
Me, either. But...

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come...Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (2 Tim. 3)
There is a difference between the tribulation that is normal for believers and the last days tribulation where the antichrist is revealed. I'm sure the church in North Korea, Afghanistan, Iran etc. would say that the Western church has it easy. The 7 year period we find in the book of Daniel will be worse than anything seen to date. That is the "Great tribulation".
 
Secret rapture and pretrib.. rapture is false.

When Jesus comes every eye will know that it is Jesus. The saved will be gathered together and taken to be with Jesus in Heaven. This world will be completely destroyed and recreated before the saved inhabit it.

After 1000 years.... Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. ....

This evil world has no part with God's kingdom. This world is Satan's kingdom and Jesus will destroy everything.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 
I hear your point, but "Great tribulation" does not appear in scripture.


Of course it does.

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 
You are right we will be caught up in the air ( SPIRT) and taken to meet Jesus at the vally He mabe shen He desended from heaven and set up His earthly kingdom here on earth. Zechariah 14.
All rapture verses are pretrib.
Noah only RETURNED postrib.
Noah in the heavens DURING THE TRIB.

THE RAPTURE depicts bodily ascension to heaven with no turn depicted.

Postribs actually invented the uturn.(Not in the bible at all.)
 
Secret rapture and pretrib.. rapture is false.

When Jesus comes every eye will know that it is Jesus. The saved will be gathered together and taken to be with Jesus in Heaven. This world will be completely destroyed and recreated before the saved inhabit it.

After 1000 years.... Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. ....

This evil world has no part with God's kingdom. This world is Satan's kingdom and Jesus will destroy everything.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
If you're trying to make a case for only one coming, please take a look at revelation 14 and verse 14.
That cannot be the main rapture. Nor can it be the second coming.....and yet there it is .....completely destroying everything but a pretrib rapture.

I know, I know....it matters not to anyone but a student of the word
 
Secret rapture and pretrib.. rapture is false.

When Jesus comes every eye will know that it is Jesus. The saved will be gathered together and taken to be with Jesus in Heaven. This world will be completely destroyed and recreated before the saved inhabit it.

After 1000 years.... Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. ....

This evil world has no part with God's kingdom. This world is Satan's kingdom and Jesus will destroy everything.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
BTW
The postrib rapture claims one coming, in spite of what Jesus said at the last supper, that he was preparing a place in heaven.

And that he would not drink of the cup again until He drank it anew with his saints in his father's house.
So I don't know what in the world you do with that, since in the postrib doctrine, there's one coming on white horses at the end of the tribulation.
And they claim that there's some kind of a rising up of the saints, only to do a Uturn right back to Earth.
Your doctrine cannot possibly be true if you do not see the saints in heaven at the wedding supper.
 
Jesus came spot on time and was baptised at the start of the 70th week. Then Jesus died in the middle of the last week. The offerings no longer mattered and Jesus was preached for 3 and a half years to the Jews before it went to the Gentiles.

70 weeks was given to Israel and they rejected Jesus.

The last week is not seperated and moved to the very end of time.
This is a human doctrine not supported by the Bible.
Nope.
In Daniel, the Antichrist is connected to a covenant of 7 years.
it says the middle of that 7 years that he desecrates the temple So that idea of yours is way way off.

Ask yourself who it was that muddied that all up and reframed the 7 year rule of the ac.
 
Precious friend, respectfully Disagree:

God's Great GRACE Departure! {aka pre-trib rapture}

Amen.
I don't disagree at all with all saints raptured from the earth, before the great tribulation of His wrath upon those left behind.

I see it as pre-invasion bombardment, before He then comes down to the earth Himself with His saints, to destroy the world's armies gathered against Him at Armageddon and Judea.
 
It's dicey enough to have a clear translation in our own language from the Greek.

It's only compounded by a Latin middle trasnlation, that is well-known to favor the later Catholic church, as opposed to the Greek Orthodox.

We can thank the Lord, that He has kept His Scriptures intact, as when first given to His prophets and apostles. And, we can thank Him for having reasonably faithful translators in our own languages, so we don't have to become Hebrew or Greek scholars to know His own words of life and gospel to us...
 
If you're trying to make a case for only one coming, please take a look at revelation 14 and verse 14.
That cannot be the main rapture. Nor can it be the second coming.....and yet there it is .....completely destroying everything but a pretrib rapture.

I know, I know....it matters not to anyone but a student of the word
You are going to have to use scripture, ( Quote Scripture ) to present an believable argument for your beliefs, cuz your posting your opinion is NON-Sense to me ...
Rev 14:14 is the second Coming of our Lord Jesus .. and your saying it is, not ? .... but without an valid scriptural argument it's just your "stupid" opinion.. As far as I'm concerned ...
Get Real Man !!! Where's the Beef !!! Give me a LOGICAL SCRIPTURAL train of thought, proving your assertions.
 
Why is it that so many churches, doctrines, people, want to follow the teachings of the rapture when in so many places God tell us it is a lie?
Matthew 13 (NIV)
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Matthew 24
The Return of the Son of Man
(Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You can also find this in Mark 13 and Luke 21.
To be continued .

Where is the contradiction here with I Thessalonians 4:17 that you think you see?

Do you believe the saints will not be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming? Notice the 'gather the elect from the four winds' part in Matthew 24:31 above.

Keep in mind that English-language Bible commentators (John Gill, Matthew Poole) used the word 'rapture' to refer to this long before John Darby came up with is pretrib theory after 1800.
 
'Rapture'(believers are secretly taken up before the seven-year tribulation to avoid sufferings) was a 19th century invention by a guy John Nelson Darby. Rapture was not taught by St.Paul and certainly no biblical support.

That's not what rapture means. 'Rapture' refers to the catching up of saints to meet the Lord in the air referred to in I Thessalonians 4:17, which uses an inflected form of the Greek word harpazo. This is how pretrib rapture adherents use it, and why the term can be used in terms like 'post-trib rapture.' The term was also used by John Gil and Matthew Poole, Bible commentators who wrote commentary on I Thessalonians 4 before Darby was born.

If you say you do not believe in the rapture, what other people take that to mean is that you do not believe the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as per I Thessalonians 4:17.
 
You are going to have to use scripture, ( Quote Scripture ) to present an believable argument for your beliefs, cuz your posting your opinion is NON-Sense to me ...
Rev 14:14 is the second Coming of our Lord Jesus .. and your saying it is, not ? .... but without an valid scriptural argument it's just your "stupid" opinion.. As far as I'm concerned ...
Get Real Man !!! Where's the Beef !!! Give me a LOGICAL SCRIPTURAL train of thought, proving your assertions.
You are going to have to present scripture and not reframe Rev 14 .

Rev 14 is a JEWISH gathering.
144k ETHNIC Jews as firstfruits.
Firstfruits AUTOMATICALLY POINTS to harvest.
MAIN HARVEST follows firstfruits. (Rev 14:14)
If you OMIT ANY OF THOSE FACTS, then you will never get to the heart of the matter.
Framing me as stupid somehow bolsters your deal?
Actually it shows me your inability to present any sound conclusions.

If you question the validity of rev 14 ( the VIVID CLEAR Jewish Gathering) then you must do it scripturally.
Which I can address and defend easily.

BUT to present Rev 14:14 as the rapture is absurd.
Jesus is holding a sickle, gathering a people IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE 144K FIRSTFRUIT JEWISH GATHERING.

IT, in no way , can possibly be the rapture.
That Rev 14 gathering of main harvest and firstfruit Jews is MID TRIB, right before the wrath of rev 15.


All rapture verses are Normal life, everyday life, Commerce, buying and selling, Planning for the future, betrothal and marriage ceremonies.... and it is completely opposite of what revelation 14 verse 14 is. Because it is during the trib and none of that is going on.
 
Nope.
In Daniel, the Antichrist is connected to a covenant of 7 years.
it says the middle of that 7 years that he desecrates the temple So that idea of yours is way way off.
Ask yourself who it was that muddied that all up and reframed the 7 year rule of the ac.

Forgive me for using the word, "stupid".. which to me means " Trained by traditional world propaganda". I SHOULD have used, "Ignorant".

The understanding of Daniel 9:27 has been corrupted by Jesuits of the RCC these past 500+ years, ( to develop their Dispensationalism Theory) Making Dan 9:27 about the Antichrist, when it's ONLY about Jesus, doing away with the ceremonial jewish sacrifices, in the middle of that "week" , the last 7 years of the 490 yr prophecy.

The Jesuits creating what they call, the "Gap theory" being a 7 years of tribulation at these end of days. NOT True !! Yeah ! There will be tribulations coming SOON, and Jesus, like he says, will come, in the clouds, at the end of days.

You are going to have to present scripture and not reframe Rev 14 .

Rev 14 is a JEWISH gathering.
144k ETHNIC Jews as firstfruits.
Firstfruits AUTOMATICALLY POINTS to harvest.
MAIN HARVEST follows firstfruits. (Rev 14:14)
If you OMIT ANY OF THOSE FACTS, then you will never get to the heart of the matter.
Framing me as stupid somehow bolsters your deal?
Actually it shows me your inability to present any sound conclusions.

If you question the validity of rev 14 ( the VIVID CLEAR Jewish Gathering) then you must do it scripturally.
Which I can address and defend easily.

BUT to present Rev 14:14 as the rapture is absurd.
Jesus is holding a sickle, gathering a people IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE 144K FIRSTFRUIT JEWISH GATHERING.

IT, in no way , can possibly be the rapture.
That Rev 14 gathering of main harvest and firstfruit Jews is MID TRIB, right before the wrath of rev 15.


All rapture verses are Normal life, everyday life, Commerce, buying and selling, Planning for the future, betrothal and marriage ceremonies.... and it is completely opposite of what revelation 14 verse 14 is. Because it is during the trib and none of that is going on.

The Jewish Nation ceased to have Prophetic involvement when Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate"
True Christ Believing Christians are NOW "Spiritual Israel" , which is who the 144K of Rev 14, are ... I HOPE & PRAY to be among that number...
(I'm NOT Jewish )

1. The Text in Revelation 14:14 (KJV)
“And I looked, and, lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like the Son of man, having a golden crown, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”
The image of “one sat like the Son of Man” on a white cloud, crowned and holding a sickle, is unmistakably a portrait of the returning Messiah.

2. Biblical Context that Links This Vision to the Second Advent

Revelation 19:11‑16 – “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Here the “Son of Man” appears on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, with a sharp sword."
The language parallels Rev 14:14 (white cloud, crown, sickle) and clearly depicts Christ’s visible, glorious return to judge the world.

Acts 1:11 – “He shall come again… in the same manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
The apostles were told that Christ would return in the same way He ascended—on a cloud. Rev 14:14 shows Him already seated on a cloud, fulfilling that promise.

Matthew 24:30 – “...the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven…”Jesus Himself describes His return from the clouds, matching the vision of Rev 14:14.

Zechariah 14:4‑5 – “His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives… and the LORD shall be king over all the earth.”
This Old‑Testament prophecy of the Messiah standing on a mount (or cloud) in the end‑times is echoed in the Revelation scene.

1 Thessalonians 4:16‑17 – “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… with a shout… the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
The descent “from heaven” and the gathering of the elect are consistent with the crowning and judging posture of the figure in Rev 14:14.

These passages together create a clear biblical pattern: Christ will return visibly from the heavens, on a cloud, as the glorified “Son of Man,” to execute judgment. Rev 14:14 fits precisely within that pattern.