Meant to grab this ^ post also... My response is in the preceding post (Post #120). Thanks. = )
Rapture True or False.
- Thread starter KeithB
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No.
And, for what it is worth, take note of the fact that there is no "nor ever shall be" in the Daniel passage like there is in the Matthew passage.
No. (HRE/RCC)
Another point (re: this Subject),
Luke 21:28 DOES have both words, "begin [G756]" and "to come to pass [G1096]"... but the context here is sometime within the second half of the 7 Trib yrs... pointing toward His "near" to be Second Coming to the earth; whereas earlier in Luke 21, verses 8-11 are describing the first part of the 7-yrs (parallel the SEALS of Rev6--just as are Matt24:4-8 and Mark 13:5-8... OF WHICH, the INITIAL ONE of those "beginning of birth PANGS" is the "KICK OFF" to "the DOTL / TRIB"-aspect, which Paul is addressing in 1Th5:1-3 the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" is "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... So Jesus is talking about those "beginning of birth PANGS" in the early part, happening well-prior to the MID-point when the AOD occurs, and well before His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... but ALL within those "7 yrs"; Many MORE "birth PANGS" follow on from those "BEGINNING OF BPs" just as in real labor that a woman experiences... and all of them LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)
Luke 21:28 DOES have both words, "begin [G756]" and "to come to pass [G1096]"... but the context here is sometime within the second half of the 7 Trib yrs... pointing toward His "near" to be Second Coming to the earth; whereas earlier in Luke 21, verses 8-11 are describing the first part of the 7-yrs (parallel the SEALS of Rev6--just as are Matt24:4-8 and Mark 13:5-8... OF WHICH, the INITIAL ONE of those "beginning of birth PANGS" is the "KICK OFF" to "the DOTL / TRIB"-aspect, which Paul is addressing in 1Th5:1-3 the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" is "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... So Jesus is talking about those "beginning of birth PANGS" in the early part, happening well-prior to the MID-point when the AOD occurs, and well before His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... but ALL within those "7 yrs"; Many MORE "birth PANGS" follow on from those "BEGINNING OF BPs" just as in real labor that a woman experiences... and all of them LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)
Okay, let me make sure I understand you.
It is your view that "a time, times, and an half" Dan12:6-7 (Hebrew) is NOT speaking of the SAME time-period that "a time and times and the dividing of time" Dan7:25 (Aramaic) refers to, am I reading you right?
IOW, you believe the two references ^ are speaking to completely distinct and disparate time-periods, right?
[the sense of] 'begin' is inherent to the definition of the word - because, the word means "to become (come into being)" [Strongs G1096]
Again:
'things' is a 'what' - and, refers to the 'list' and not the 'items' [in/of the list]
Nowhere in this word is the past-tense fulfillment of every one of a list of items (implied or insinuated). It is referring to the list as a collective whole. (in the context of the statement in the verse)
Well, I've not suggested such.
I'm saying that John was getting ready to be "SHOW[n]" ("future things"... things "prophesied" TO take place, futurely):
"[TO SHOW unto...] what things must become [/come into being] in quickness / with speed"... which "things" refers to the future aspects of the Book (starting with the "I WILL SHOW YOU" of 4:1). Nothing of it (4:1+ ) had yet taken place (as in "past-tense").
--the "MUST [G1163]" of 1:1 and 4:1 ("[I WILL SHOW YOU] what things MUST become [come into being] AFTER THESE-things [meta tauta]")
are equivalent to the wording in 1:19c "mello [G3195 - '[what things] [are] SURE [to]']" (are SURE to become [come into being] AFTER THESE-things [meta tauta]"- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/19/p0/t_conc_1168019 )
[BTW, this is why I'm always placing these 3 together: Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ]
"what things" MUST / ARE SURE TO [take place / come into being] BECAUSE they've been prophesied, and so WILL.
No, "what things" "MUST" and "ARE SURE TO"... (futurely)--that's what's going to be "SHOW[n]" (...from 4:1 onward--things which come "AFTER" "the things WHICH ARE" [1:19b-i.e. chpts 2-3], which are NOT said OF THEM that they are "things which must come to pass [/become / come into being] in quickness / with speed"... by contrast)
Only "what things" are shown from 4:1 thru chpt 19 are the "what things must come to pass / become / come into being IN QUICKNESS [noun]" / the 7-yrs things. = )
[on the earth, it starts with SEAL #1 / the FIRST-MENTIONED "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of; and which Paul likewise spoke of in the singular in 1Th5:1-3, i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period--Just as Isa13:6,8 speak to [see "wrath" in v.9]--and again "the DOTL" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day," as many suppose...]
[on the earth, it starts with SEAL #1 / the FIRST-MENTIONED "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of; and which Paul likewise spoke of in the singular in 1Th5:1-3, i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period--Just as Isa13:6,8 speak to [see "wrath" in v.9]--and again "the DOTL" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day," as many suppose...]
The thing is....Gary is proposing that the term: γίνομαι gínomai should mean "begin", which it certainly does not.
γίνομαι gínomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),
"generate in quickness" would be the correct translation to the English.
Tall_Timbers
Well-known member
God's chastening those whom He loves and His wrath are two very different things.
I've known His chastening. I'll never feel His wrath.
Nope. This Greek term does not exist in that passage:
The KJV translates Strong's G756 in the following manner: begin (83x), rehearse from the beginning (1x).
ἄρχομαι árchomai, ar'-khom-ahee; middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time):—(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).
Furthermore, as regards ἐν τάχει "IN QUICKNESS", how could this possibly apply to "the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are" the Church age of Rev 2 & 3?
Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
One of the outstanding Christian apologists of our time IMO.
Not to mention that he is right about the pre-trib rapture.
those Birthing Pangs can easily be a 50 year period [jubilee] and could end well after Tribulation begins. WE are guaranteed protection from WRATH. Birthing Pangs and WRATH just happen to connect to the final 7 year period. but the final 7 year period is just a time frame between Pangs and actual Birth fulfilling. we are SAFE on Earth during Pangs
I am going to give you 1 verse Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
I will be posting more on this today, it will be on the open forum Bible Study Mark 13. I do not want to argue but if you want to go over scripture I am all for it.
Go for it but the Gospels confirm pre WRATH over the false idealism of pre Tribulation.
The one and only reference to the rapture in the Gospels is the book of John. The keen mind will understand that these statements are conjugate to everything else recorded in the NT as regards the pattern of the Jewish wedding ceremony as it relates to the Bride the Church.
Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
My references to him are based on the Words of Yeshua, which he will present from Mark's account.
And the Words of Yeshua speak of marriage, feasting, normal life entering into the first year's of the Great Horrible Tribulation.
But His Words soon become warnings of Wrath.
Yeshua gave us the blueprint!
Pre-Wrath!!
True.
Yes. (Sorry I answered in the wrong order.)
Qualifications for the office of False Prophet are not gender specific.