Rapture True or False.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please see post #89.

Meant to grab this ^ post also... My response is in the preceding post (Post #120). Thanks. = )

 

[GaryA]

--do you believe that Daniel 12:1[,6-7,11] ("there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time") is speaking of the same time-frame that Jesus was referencing in Matthew 24:[15,]21?

No.

And, for what it is worth, take note of the fact that there is no "nor ever shall be" in the Daniel passage like there is in the Matthew passage.

--do you believe that Daniel 12:6-7's "time, times, and an half" is referring to the same time-frame that Daniel 7:25[,27,20b,21,22b] which has v.25 saying "a time and times and the dividing of time" ? (And, who do you believe v.20b is DESCRIBING?)

No. (HRE/RCC)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another point (re: this Subject),

Luke 21:28 DOES have both words, "begin [G756]" and "to come to pass [G1096]"... but the context here is sometime within the second half of the 7 Trib yrs... pointing toward His "near" to be Second Coming to the earth; whereas earlier in Luke 21, verses 8-11 are describing the first part of the 7-yrs (parallel the SEALS of Rev6--just as are Matt24:4-8 and Mark 13:5-8... OF WHICH, the INITIAL ONE of those "beginning of birth PANGS" is the "KICK OFF" to "the DOTL / TRIB"-aspect, which Paul is addressing in 1Th5:1-3 the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" is "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... So Jesus is talking about those "beginning of birth PANGS" in the early part, happening well-prior to the MID-point when the AOD occurs, and well before His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... but ALL within those "7 yrs"; Many MORE "birth PANGS" follow on from those "BEGINNING OF BPs" just as in real labor that a woman experiences... and all of them LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
--do you believe that Daniel 12:6-7's "time, times, and an half" is referring to the same time-frame that Daniel 7:25[,27,20b,21,22b] which has v.25 saying "a time and times and the dividing of time" ? (And, who do you believe v.20b is DESCRIBING?)

No. (HRE/RCC)

Okay, let me make sure I understand you.

It is your view that "a time, times, and an half" Dan12:6-7 (Hebrew) is NOT speaking of the SAME time-period that "a time and times and the dividing of time" Dan7:25 (Aramaic) refers to, am I reading you right?

IOW, you believe the two references ^ are speaking to completely distinct and disparate time-periods, right?

 

[GaryA]

Okay, let me make sure I understand you.

It is your view that "a time, times, and an half" Dan12:6-7 (Hebrew) is NOT speaking of the SAME time-period that "a time and times and the dividing of time" Dan7:25 (Aramaic) refers to, am I reading you right?

IOW, you believe the two references ^ are speaking to completely distinct and disparate time-periods, right?

Correct.

 

[GaryA]

And what I'm pointing out is, pick one... either the RED or the BLUE... but not both red&blue... for the G1096 word.

[the sense of] 'begin' is inherent to the definition of the word - because, the word means "to become (come into being)" [Strongs G1096]

Again:

What is indicated is not that each-and-every item in a list of things had fully occurred; rather, it is that the list of things began to occur.

'things' is a 'what' - and, refers to the 'list' and not the 'items' [in/of the list]

Nowhere in this word is the past-tense fulfillment of every one of a list of items (implied or insinuated). It is referring to the list as a collective whole. (in the context of the statement in the verse)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nowhere in this word is the past-tense fulfillment of every one of a list of items (implied or insinuated).

Well, I've not suggested such.



I'm saying that John was getting ready to be "SHOW[n]" ("future things"... things "prophesied" TO take place, futurely):

"[TO SHOW unto...] what things must become [/come into being] in quickness / with speed"... which "things" refers to the future aspects of the Book (starting with the "I WILL SHOW YOU" of 4:1). Nothing of it (4:1+ ) had yet taken place (as in "past-tense").




--the "MUST [G1163]" of 1:1 and 4:1 ("[I WILL SHOW YOU] what things MUST become [come into being] AFTER THESE-things [meta tauta]")
are equivalent to the wording in 1:19c "mello [G3195 - '[what things] [are] SURE [to]']" (are SURE to become [come into being] AFTER THESE-things [meta tauta]"- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/1/19/p0/t_conc_1168019 )







[BTW, this is why I'm always placing these 3 together: Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ]



"what things" MUST / ARE SURE TO [take place / come into being] BECAUSE they've been prophesied, and so WILL.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

GaryA said:
What is indicated is not that each-and-every item in a list of things had fully occurred

No, "what things" "MUST" and "ARE SURE TO"... (futurely)--that's what's going to be "SHOW[n]" (...from 4:1 onward--things which come "AFTER" "the things WHICH ARE" [1:19b-i.e. chpts 2-3], which are NOT said OF THEM that they are "things which must come to pass [/become / come into being] in quickness / with speed"... by contrast)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Only "what things" are shown from 4:1 thru chpt 19 are the "what things must come to pass / become / come into being IN QUICKNESS [noun]" / the 7-yrs things. = )






[on the earth, it starts with SEAL #1 / the FIRST-MENTIONED "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of; and which Paul likewise spoke of in the singular in 1Th5:1-3, i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period--Just as Isa13:6,8 speak to [see "wrath" in v.9]--and again "the DOTL" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day," as many suppose...]

 

[cv5]

And what I'm pointing out is, pick one... either the RED or the BLUE... but not both red&blue... for the G1096 word.





Then, put whichever ONE you choose ^ beside the [other / distinct] words I'm pointing out ("en tachei / en taxei"--"in quickness" or "with speed" G1722 G5034 - NOUN)...



... and then see that the word "TO SHOW [unto]" also factors into this matter (because it's what's going to be "SHOW[n]" in this Book... starting in 4:1 "SHOW")...

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'become' in quickness / with speed..."

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'begin' in quickness / with speed..."

--"...to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'be fulfilled' in quickness / with speed..."

--"to SHOW unto His servants what things must 'come to pass' in quickness / with speed..."






It seems to me that according to your viewpoint, that pretty much the ONLY thing that John [or "His servants"] was going to be "SHOW[n]" by means of what John was given to disclose, is what must "BEGIN" the thing [whatever that thing is, which is "in quickness / with speed"], not anything else being involved in the "what things [must]" aspect. See what I mean?








[P.S. My view is that "[unto] His servants" ALSO INCLUDES "the 144,000 SERVANTS of our God" per Rev7:3... ; which corresponds also with the SEQUENCE ISSUES between Matt22:7 [70ad events] and Matt22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants"--AFTER the 70ad events... and Revelation [written 95ad] "fits" the bill nicely; the 144,000 do not yet exist on the earth, but WILL in/during the 7 Trib yrs, in their role...]

The thing is....Gary is proposing that the term: γίνομαι gínomai should mean "begin", which it certainly does not.

γίνομαι gínomai, ghin'-om-ahee; a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),

"generate in quickness" would be the correct translation to the English.

 

[Tall_Timbers]

I think you have that backwards. God chastens those that he loves, and he does not chasten those that are not his children (Psalms 73)

God's chastening those whom He loves and His wrath are two very different things.

I've known His chastening. I'll never feel His wrath.

 

[cv5]

What is indicated is not that each-and-every item in a list of things had fully occurred; rather, it is that the list of things began to occur.

Nope. This Greek term does not exist in that passage:

The KJV translates Strong's G756 in the following manner: begin (83x), rehearse from the beginning (1x).
ἄρχομαι árchomai, ar'-khom-ahee; middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence); to commence (in order of time):—(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).

Furthermore, as regards ἐν τάχει "IN QUICKNESS", how could this possibly apply to "the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are" the Church age of Rev 2 & 3?

Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[cv5]

Walvoord did an excellent job in presenting the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and also refuting all the other teachings which did not line up. He has written several books which go into Bible prophecy in-depth.

One of the outstanding Christian apologists of our time IMO.
Not to mention that he is right about the pre-trib rapture.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

^ and that's besides the fact that the 24 elders are saying "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY" when they are shown sitting on "thrones" and wearing "stephanous / crowns" [see "[awarded] IN THAT DAY" 2Tim4:8!], shown to be UP THERE *before* Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13) by His opening the first seal at the START of the 7-yr period (equivalent to the FIRST OF "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoken of in His Olivet Discourse)...

those Birthing Pangs can easily be a 50 year period [jubilee] and could end well after Tribulation begins. WE are guaranteed protection from WRATH. Birthing Pangs and WRATH just happen to connect to the final 7 year period. but the final 7 year period is just a time frame between Pangs and actual Birth fulfilling. we are SAFE on Earth during Pangs

 

[KeithB]

i was raised pre-trib, been intimately familiar with the subject matter for over 40+ years. went to biblical institutions that teach on specific topics and dug deeper into that idealism of pre-trib. and all along, i noticed every Scripture referencing the Rapture had nothing to do with which Day the Tribulation begins on, nor any specific DAY other than it was before Believers faced LITERAL and ACTUAL WRATH.

your theory is hot air. Tribulation day one compared to year 4 will be nothing in comparison because the WRATH has been unleashed. we have no real enemy or WRATH until year 2+.

you need to rethink and toss out the word Tribulation and insert WRATH. Rapture happens at Pre-WRATH!

I am going to give you 1 verse Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[KeithB]

i was raised pre-trib, been intimately familiar with the subject matter for over 40+ years. went to biblical institutions that teach on specific topics and dug deeper into that idealism of pre-trib. and all along, i noticed every Scripture referencing the Rapture had nothing to do with which Day the Tribulation begins on, nor any specific DAY other than it was before Believers faced LITERAL and ACTUAL WRATH.

your theory is hot air. Tribulation day one compared to year 4 will be nothing in comparison because the WRATH has been unleashed. we have no real enemy or WRATH until year 2+.

you need to rethink and toss out the word Tribulation and insert WRATH. Rapture happens at Pre-WRATH!

I will be posting more on this today, it will be on the open forum Bible Study Mark 13. I do not want to argue but if you want to go over scripture I am all for it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I will be posting more on this today, it will be on the open forum Bible Study Mark 13. I do not want to argue but if you want to go over scripture I am all for it.

Go for it but the Gospels confirm pre WRATH over the false idealism of pre Tribulation.

 

[cv5]

Go for it but the Gospels confirm pre WRATH over the false idealism of pre Tribulation.

The one and only reference to the rapture in the Gospels is the book of John. The keen mind will understand that these statements are conjugate to everything else recorded in the NT as regards the pattern of the Jewish wedding ceremony as it relates to the Bride the Church.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The one and only reference to the rapture in the Gospels is the book of John. The keen mind will understand that these statements are conjugate to everything else recorded in the NT as regards the pattern of the Jewish wedding ceremony as it relates to the Bride the Church.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

My references to him are based on the Words of Yeshua, which he will present from Mark's account.

And the Words of Yeshua speak of marriage, feasting, normal life entering into the first year's of the Great Horrible Tribulation.

But His Words soon become warnings of Wrath.

Yeshua gave us the blueprint!

Pre-Wrath!!

 

[oyster67]

THE RAPTURE TRUE OR FALSE?​

True.

Let me ask this question first: Do you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?

Yes. (Sorry I answered in the wrong order.)

False Women Prophets

Qualifications for the office of False Prophet are not gender specific.