Rapture! Tribulation!

[Edward429451]

I think we know that we go through the Tribulation.

Revelation 14:9-12
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

This warning is not for the unsaved but for the saints.

That warning is for the saved and the unsaved. Because when someone takes the mark of the beast it will change their DNA and the become non-redeemable!

I'm trying to understand what your saying but it hasnt convinced me yet of a post trib rapture. We are not appointed to wrath, it's as simple as that.

All scripture must agree with all other scripture or it is wrong I think.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

This is the verse that your position does not agree with. What does this mean if we do get to go through the wrath anyway?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

That warning is for the saved and the unsaved. Because when someone takes the mark of the beast it will change their DNA and the become non-redeemable!

I'm trying to understand what your saying but it hasnt convinced me yet of a post trib rapture. We are not appointed to wrath, it's as simple as that.

All scripture must agree with all other scripture or it is wrong I think.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

This is the verse that your position does not agree with. What does this mean if we do get to go through the wrath anyway?

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, but you already know this. God also knows you know this.

 

[Inquisitor]

That warning is for the saved and the unsaved. Because when someone takes the mark of the beast it will change their DNA and the become non-redeemable!

I'm trying to understand what your saying but it hasnt convinced me yet of a post trib rapture. We are not appointed to wrath, it's as simple as that.

All scripture must agree with all other scripture or it is wrong I think.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

This is the verse that your position does not agree with. What does this mean if we do get to go through the wrath anyway?

You may be assuming that the Tribulation is the wrath of God?

 

[GaryA]

The great tribulation IS the 3.5 year period, repeated 5 times in Revelation 11-13. There's no seven year tribulation.

I will agree that there is no seven year tribulation. There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

I cannot agree that [the] 'great tribulation' (as referred to in Matthew 24:21) is a 3.5 year period.

The only 3.5 year 'prophetic' End Times period is the Two Witnesses. And, it begins at the end of this same 'great tribulation' mentioned above. The description in Matthew 24:29 coincides with the Two Witnesses period of time. The return of Christ follows at the end of that period of time.

Please see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Also, it's not just Matt. 24:29-31, in Revelation Jesus returns AFTER the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven bowls and the destruction of Babylon the Great, at the very end of chapter 19. I did read carefully, and I didn't find another 3.5 year period between 19:16 and 20:1.

In the chart on the above web page - for each of the columns, verses of scripture that "go together" (in the [same] time frame of that column) are presented together in that column. Pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses along with the Trumpet verses and those about the bottomless pit and the beast that ascends out of it after it is opened.

Please also see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

Please see these posts from the past:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-193#post-4582092
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-219#post-4588602
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-232#post-4591063
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-200#post-4718501
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-or-second-coming.207494/page-21#post-4934207
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...already-fulfilled.213321/page-15#post-5211115

 

[GaryA]

That warning is for the saved and the unsaved. Because when someone takes the mark of the beast it will change their DNA and the become non-redeemable!

I'm trying to understand what your saying but it hasnt convinced me yet of a post trib rapture. We are not appointed to wrath, it's as simple as that.

All scripture must agree with all other scripture or it is wrong I think.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

This is the verse that your position does not agree with. What does this mean if we do get to go through the wrath anyway?

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, but you already know this. God also knows you know this.

You may be assuming that the Tribulation is the wrath of God?

I will agree that the 'tribulation' is not the Wrath of God.

 

[Edward429451]

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, but you already know this. God also knows you know this.

You may be assuming that the Tribulation is the wrath of God?

Well I dont know what else you'd call it. It's describes as being worst thing that ever happened during the history of the world and never will be again....? (Matthew 24:21)

Actually it might be a act of mercy by God? The great trib is going to convince Israel that they do need a messiah! and that brings Israel to a saving knowledge of the Gospel.

There's no atheists in foxholes! They are a stubborn people.

 

[Edward429451]

I will agree that the 'tribulation' is not the Wrath of God.

It has always what I thought to be obvious that of course the great trib is Gods wrath. And I went from there, so I'll give you that maybe they are distinct from each other even tho they is certainly related in a practical sense.

Tell me Brother, what is the distinction between them?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I will agree that there is no seven year tribulation. There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

I cannot agree that [the] 'great tribulation' (as referred to in Matthew 24:21) is a 3.5 year period.

The only 3.5 year 'prophetic' End Times period is the Two Witnesses. And, it begins at the end of this same 'great tribulation' mentioned above. The description in Matthew 24:29 coincides with the Two Witnesses period of time. The return of Christ follows at the end of that period of time.

Please see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html


In the chart on the above web page - for each of the columns, verses of scripture that "go together" (in the [same] time frame of that column) are presented together in that column. Pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses along with the Trumpet verses and those about the bottomless pit and the beast that ascends out of it after it is opened.

Please also see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

Please see these posts from the past:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-193#post-4582092
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-219#post-4588602
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-232#post-4591063
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-200#post-4718501
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-or-second-coming.207494/page-21#post-4934207
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...already-fulfilled.213321/page-15#post-5211115

God does cut those days short for the sake of the elect. God won't drag those days out like the anitchrist would hope.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Well I dont know what else you'd call it. It's describes as being worst thing that ever happened during the history of the world and never will be again....? (Matthew 24:21)

Actually it might be a act of mercy by God? The great trib is going to convince Israel that they do need a messiah! and that brings Israel to a saving knowledge of the Gospel.

There's no atheists in foxholes! They are a stubborn people.

Yes martyrdom of Christians will draw a lot of people to Jesus for salvation. They'll see He is worth living and dying for. It happened all the previous times Christians were persecuted. The antichrists of every time attempted to wipe them out but new ones would get saved. When all the people God knew would accept Him, He utterly destroyed the antichrists, often in some humiliating way.

 

[Edward429451]

God does cut those days short for the sake of the elect. God won't drag those days out like the anitchrist would hope.

What I don't understand is one verse says we will meet Jesus in the air and another verse says He sends His Angels to gather the elect?

Which one is it? This is two trips to earth. First time to rapture His Bride and He is in the air and dont come down.

Then after the tribulation, He does His 2nd coming and sends His Angels to gather them. See? That makes sense.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

 

[GaryA]

It has always what I thought to be obvious that of course the great trib is Gods wrath. And I went from there, so I'll give you that maybe they are distinct from each other even tho they is certainly related in a practical sense.

Tell me Brother, what is the distinction between them?

The seals, trumpets, and vials all represent 'judgment'; however, only the vials are the Wrath of God.

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Verse 14 is referring to the appearance of Jesus at the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 16 is referring to the rapture. Verse 19 is referring to the Wrath of God being "poured out" on the earth:

Revelation 16:

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Described as the seven [last] plagues here:

Revelation 15:

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

The vials - no more and no less - are the Wrath of God.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

What I don't understand is one verse says we will meet Jesus in the air and another verse says He sends His Angels to gather the elect?

Which one is it? This is two trips to earth. First time to rapture His Bride and He is in the air and dont come down.

Then after the tribulation, He does His 2nd coming and sends His Angels to gather them. See? That makes sense.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

I don't see any conflict here? It's both in one event:

1. The people who already died, right up to the ones who got martyred in the great trbulation.
2. The ones who are still alive and remain on earth.

So both the dead and those still alive get collected in the same event.

Does the mention of angels gathering us for the Lord in one verse and not the other throw you off? Those verses were writen by two different authors and seeing the rapture from two different perspectives. It's like the four gospels - they speak about the same events but from different perspectives.

 

[GaryA]

Actually it might be a act of mercy by God? The great trib is going to convince Israel that they do need a messiah! and that brings Israel to a saving knowledge of the Gospel.

Now you are talking about the 'time of Jacob's trouble':

Jeremiah 30:

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

(not the 'great tribulation')

 

[GaryA]

What I don't understand is one verse says we will meet Jesus in the air and another verse says He sends His Angels to gather the elect?

Which one is it? This is two trips to earth. First time to rapture His Bride and He is in the air and dont come down.

Then after the tribulation, He does His 2nd coming and sends His Angels to gather them. See? That makes sense.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

Same event - Jesus comes down from heaven - sends angels to gather the elect - all meet Jesus in the air.

 

[Inquisitor]

What I don't understand is one verse says we will meet Jesus in the air and another verse says He sends His Angels to gather the elect?

Which one is it? This is two trips to earth. First time to rapture His Bride and He is in the air and dont come down.

Then after the tribulation, He does His 2nd coming and sends His Angels to gather them. See? That makes sense.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

Different authors record different versions based on different sources.

I always lean towards an apostle rather than that of a disciple.

For example, the narration of the public ministry of Jesus Christ that Luke wrote is below.

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us,
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants
of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning,
to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus.

Luke is not an apostle nor was Luke told to write this narration by God. There is no mention of God
telling Luke to write this narration.

I have read that there were up to 28 separate gospels written and another source stated 56.

Luke simply compiled a vast bank of knowledge on the public ministry of Jesus.

Luke addressed this narration to one fellow named Theophilus.

Does that mean we can base a doctrine on the material in the gospel of Luke?

Does that also mean that everything Luke wrote is accurate?

I always defer to Paul and John for doctrine.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Rapture! vs Tribulation! ?

Rightly Divided!!:


Amen!

And, precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

 

[GaryA]

Rapture! vs Tribulation! ?

Rightly Divided!!:

View attachment 284930

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

All of the things you think occur in two separate events actually occur in [only] one event - the Second Coming of Christ - with everything occurring in its proper order.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

All of the things you think occur in two separate events actually occur in one event - the Second Coming of Christ

Of course, not what I think, But What I found In God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided ( 18-month study With 17 Parts ) - Conclusion here:

God's Great GRACE Departure! {aka rapture}

+

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[GaryA]

Of course, not what I think, But What I found...

Okay, it is what you have determined - and, you are entitled to believe it. I believed it too when I was very young - just because that is what I was taught. However, in my teen years, I started doing some real Bible study - and discovered I had been taught error.

And, that is what I have found from studying the Bible over forty-something years.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

And, that is what I have found from studying the Bible over forty-something years.

Ok then, Precious friend, seems we kindly and humbly "agree to disagree" after 40-some years of
study for each of us, Without the name-calling and false accusations = I Really appreciate that,
because:

I just don't see much of that anymore = Thanks!!!

May God Very Richly Encourage and Edify you on your own "Grace journey."

Amen.