Rapture! Tribulation!

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because in the o.t., book of malachi, tithing is spoken of giving 10% of your "first fruits", known as livestock, grain, oil, wine, etc. because the n.t. doesn't teach "10%" tithing, some people still are stuck in the o.t. believing 10% is what you should tithe. but in the n.t., 1 of the Corinthian books teaches, "let every man be a cheerful giver", meaning out of his heart to give while not complaining about it. give with joy in other words. some Christians say, "well, you can't just do away with & disregard the o.t. & so they don't get out of the habit that o.t. laws are no longer binding in the n.t. which we live in now, as of the death of Jesus on the cross. then you have unfaithful churches teaching to tithe 10% because they think it makes the church secure in the present & in the future. those are controlling churches. they want your money. remember, a church is a business, they have bills to pay, people to pay, etc. & God knew that always. as far as divorce, God give only 2 reasons to remarry: spousal death & adultery. pastor adrian rogers, 1 of the top teacher-preachers since the late 1950's taught that he believes God will honor a new marriage for reasons other than God said.

Your reply seems solid.

Indulgences were a far more effective way for wealth generation.

Indulgences have been practiced in the Catholic Church for nearly 1,000 years in their formal, defined sense, with roots extending back to the early centuries of the Church. While the specific theology and "sale" of indulgences peaked in the late Middle Ages (1300s–1500s), the foundational practices began much earlier.

Here is a breakdown of the historical timeline of indulgences:
  • Early Church Origins (3rd–6th Century): The roots of the practice lie in the early Church's penitential system. During times of persecution, Christians in prison or facing death would ask bishops to lighten the severe, long-term penances of other, "lapsed" Christians. Irish and English priests in the 6th century began assigning specific acts—like pilgrimages—as substitutes for longer, public penances.
  • 11th Century (Formalization): The practice of granting indulgences, in the sense of a formal remission of temporal punishment, began in the 11th century. Pope Urban II granted the first major plenary indulgence to those who participated in the First Crusade in 1095.
  • 12th–13th Century (Expansion): The practice spread beyond crusades to include acts of charity, such as donating money for building hospitals, bridges, and churches. The theological doctrine of the "Treasury of Merit"—which justified this system—was developed during this time.
  • 14th–16th Century (The "Sale" and Abuse): Indulgences became widely associated with monetary contributions, often marketed by "pardoners" who promised that money could free souls from purgatory. This reached its peak with the funding of St. Peter’s Basilica, which triggered Martin Luther to write his 95 Theses in 1517.
  • Post-Reformation (Reform): In 1567, Pope Pius V abolished the selling of indulgences, and the Council of Trent (1563) codified the doctrine, prohibiting financial transactions in exchange for them.
 
Thread Title
Rapture! Tribulation!

Pre-trib rapture is a snare.[/QUOTE]

Post tri Rapture--is the snare ------I say

As when Jesus comes back to fight Satan --His 2nd coming ---He Brings all the Saints with Him -----so they have to be already Raptured ------For Jesus to bring them with Him on His Second Coming

Key Scriptures
Greek word for Holy ones ---who are the Holy Ones Jesus comes back with -----

Lexical Summary
hagios: Holy, sacred, set apart
KJV: (most) holy (one, thing), saint
NASB: Holy, saints


PRE -TRIB RAPTURE ---NOT A POST _TRIB RAPTURE
 
Does Jesus return to pick up the saints (second coming)?

Then returns a third time with the saints to defeat the anti-Christ?


He does both on the second. It doesn't take that long to collect everyone and transform them.

1 Corinthians19:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


🥳
 
He does both on the second. It doesn't take that long to collect everyone and transform them.

1 Corinthians19:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


🥳

So your saying that Jesus does not return with the saints.

But returns and raises them up and then attacks the anti-Christ?
 
He does both on the second. It doesn't take that long to collect everyone and transform them.

1 Corinthians19:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


🥳

But scripture says when He comes, He brings the saints with Him.

Jude 1:14, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, Revelation 19:14. I think there's more than that too.

If those saints that come with Him from heaven are not people who were raptured, who are they?
 
So your saying that Jesus does not return with the saints.

But returns and raises them up and then attacks the anti-Christ?

But scripture says when He comes, He brings the saints with Him.

Jude 1:14, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, Revelation 19:14. I think there's more than that too.

If those saints that come with Him from heaven are not people who were raptured, who are they?


It's not complicated. The rapture is AFTER the tribulation. Jesus only needs to collect everone one time. And then he kicks the antichrist's butt.


🥳
 
It's not complicated. The rapture is AFTER the tribulation. Jesus only needs to collect everone one time. And then he kicks the antichrist's butt.


🥳

You didnt answer my question.
If those saints that come with Him from heaven are not people who were raptured, who are they?
 
Is that return of Jesus the second or third coming?
still, people think Jesus is coming 3 times: 1st, when Jesus was born & lived on earth 2,000 years ago, 2nd, He returns for the rapture, 3rd, He comes to rule & reign for the millennium (1,000 years). the rapture event is not the 2nd coming because He is in the clouds, not on earth. a while back, i thought the 2nd coming was the rapture event because i said myself, "yes, that's the 2nd coming, He's in the clouds" which is part of the earth.
 
And then He kicks the antichrist's butt...what do we do, wait on Jesus in the air while He kicks butt?

Revelation 20.

The other problem is the great white throne judgement and the judgement of the dead.

This judgement is based on various books of which one is the book of life.

This occurs after the first and second beast were dealt with.

The tribulation is over.

Those Christians beheaded by the false prophet whom had not received the mark.

These beheaded folk reign with Christ for a thousand years, that's the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are still in their graves.

Does that mean Jesus did not collect us before the tribulation?
 
still, people think Jesus is coming 3 times: 1st, when Jesus was born & lived on earth 2,000 years ago, 2nd, He returns for the rapture, 3rd, He comes to rule & reign for the millennium (1,000 years). the rapture event is not the 2nd coming because He is in the clouds, not on earth. a while back, i thought the 2nd coming was the rapture event because i said myself, "yes, that's the 2nd coming, He's in the clouds" which is part of the earth.

Revelation 20.

Which folk are living on the earth with Jesus for a thousand years?

Before the nations attack the saints and Jesus.
 
Jude in the NLT makes it real clear.

Jude 1:14-15
14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones
15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”.../NLT

How can He bring countless thousands of His holy saints with Him if no one has been raptured yet?
 
Doesnt it say their souls were beneath the Throne of God? I think it does. They went there during the tribulation.

That's the sixth seal.

The martyrs for Christ that experienced the baptism of death for their testimony.

That's not the same group that lose their heads during the tribulation.
 
still, people think Jesus is coming 3 times: 1st, when Jesus was born & lived on earth 2,000 years ago, 2nd, He returns for the rapture, 3rd, He comes to rule & reign for the millennium (1,000 years). the rapture event is not the 2nd coming because He is in the clouds, not on earth. a while back, i thought the 2nd coming was the rapture event because i said myself, "yes, that's the 2nd coming, He's in the clouds" which is part of the earth.


It's actually pretty straightforward. Everything gets done at His second coming.

I think the end times are going to happen very soon. Maybe in the 2030s? Satan is working so hard to confuse and decieve people., technology that he would need seems to be developed, and the players are placing themselves in positiom. Even the Euphrates RIver is drying up fast.


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That's the sixth seal.

The martyrs for Christ that experienced the baptism of death for their testimony.

That's not the same group that lose their heads during the tribulation.

Say what? That's not the same group of people?
Interesting, but, who are they then? From whence and where did they come from?
 
That's the sixth seal.

The martyrs for Christ that experienced the baptism of death for their testimony.

That's not the same group that lose their heads during the tribulation.

Jude 1:14-15
14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones
15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”.../NLT

I've been wrong before on some pretty big issues, but how can those people spoke about in Jude not be those people? Jude is the last book before Revelation and it's talking about the Lord coming to execute Judgment upon the people of the world. Brother, that speaks of the great trib, judgment.

Let's look at this from a different angle. Scripture speaks of the great trib being the worst time in earths history, ever. Now as the Bride (church) I have to wonder how much Jesus really loves me. Long story short, He showed me and it is more than I ever thought it was.

Brother, I think you have underestimated how much the Lord loves us. Yes He is making a special trip for His Bride and He isn't staying. We meet Him in the air and He takes us back to heaven with Him. Then real quick the GT starts.

The Bride of Christ will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven while the earth is going through the great trib. Remember the 10 Virgins Parable. 5 of them get left behind.