AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It gives me so much joy to see the sovereign God's Almighty hand and plan declared before the nations. Praise God, friend. Thank you for this beautiful declaration.
Rapists Cannot Be Saved
- Thread starter HistoryPrincess
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
EMOTIONS
The problem is you are conflating completely different ideas.
This is a common logical error when people get too carried away with their emotions.
Conflation #1:
You argue against "God's grace toward some rapists" by introducing the concept of "wolves".
The two propositions:
1. There are indeed "wolves"... people who are false Christians.
2. There are also sinners who get saved from every type of sin, such as rape.
The problem with your argument:
1. These two propositions are not mutually exclusive.
2. The existence of one does not negate the existence of the other.
3. Therefore, if the existence of one does not negate the existence of the other, then you cannot use the existence of one to argue against the existence of the other.
4. Both of these propositions coincide together in the the bible, and they also coincide together perfectly well according to rules of logic.
5. There ARE rapists who receive grace, and there are also "wolves" who are false Christians... both of these concepts coexist independently. Neither is contingent upon the other in any way: neither is causing or negating the other.
6. Therefore, bringing up "wolves" to disprove "grace toward some rapists" is not an argument.
7. This entire argument is not an argument, it is pure emotion: it is NOT a logical argument, and it is NOT a biblical argument. It is just an emotional person venting her emotions.
Conflation #2
You argue that because your detractors believe rapists "may find grace", your detractors must ALSO believe, intrinsically, that rapists should have no punishment or scrutiny.
The two propositions:
1. Rapists may find grace and salvation.
2. Rapists should face judgement... but those who believe rapists "may find grace" must also believe rapists should face no judgement.
The problem with your argument:
1. Again, you are conflating two separate propositions.
2. The potential grace offered by God in the spiritual realm, has nothing to do with the potential judgement offered by mankind in the physical realm.
3. Grace in the spiritual realm, and judgement in the physical realm, are two entirely different and independent propositions.
4 A rapist could find grace before God (for his soul), and also find judgement before men in a court (for his body).
5. Furthermore, this is all very clear in scripture: that a man may receive grace in heaven, but still have earthly consequences for his sin.
6. This is exactly why people on "death row" are sometimes saved... but we don't let them out.
Conflation #3:
You argue against "God's grace toward some rapists" by introducing the concept that "wolves" are "child rapists".
1. You make so many logical errors here I don't even know where to start.
2. First you equate wolves to child rapists, which is not logical... as all wolves are not child rapists.
3. Then you contradict your own argument, by saying you KNOW that not all wolves are child rapists... which undermines your entire argument, making it void. (If wolves are NOT child rapists, there is no reason to say they are.)
4. Then we have you engaging in some logical "slight of hand": the OP's own premise of the thread is to discuss "rapists", and now you suddenly equivocate this to only mean "child rapists." You have just equivocated on terms, and changed the entire premise of the thread. We never started off by talking specifically about child rapists... so you're just changing the whole argument to get "emotional points."
5. Finally, there is simply no difference in "potential grace" between one type of sin and another; a "child rapist" has the same potential for grace as an "adult rapist"... sin is sin. So even when you try to equivocate and change the argument from "rapists" to "child rapists", it's still utterly pointless. Sin is sin. Any sin condemns you to hell, and any sin may be forgiven through the blood of Christ.
6. All you do here is talk in circles, contradict yourself, try to change the argument, and again ignore basic tenets of scripture.
Conflation #4:
There are many more logical errors... but I don't have all day.
Conclusion:
1. You make logical error atop logical error, and doctrinal error atop doctrinal error.
2. You have no argument, either doctrinal or logical... you have only an emotional rant.
..
Really? Then I have nothing more to say to you because you've already proven my point. You prefer your own comfy interpretation to what the Bible actually says. You can argue with me about it, but would you dare argue about it with God? Read the Bible without your blinders on for once. I can quote scripture to you all day long but only you can open your heart to being taught by it. And remember the devil knows his Bible too, and he will always use it to create divisions such as this.
I mean.... who started the division here?
What do you do with Jesus' Words here?
Matthew 5:43-48 New International Version (NIV)
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
What do you do with Jesus's words here?
John 10:12
He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Matthew 7:15
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
2 Cor. 11:14-15
2 Cor. 11:14-15
- Matthew 7:13-23
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult isthe way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
- Acts 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
- Deuteronomy 13:1-5
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us go after other gods"—which you have not known—"and let us serve them," you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
- Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- 2 Peter 2:18-19
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
- 1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I'd be delighted to respond to these texts. If you would kindly answer mine 1st.
ANYBODY can divert a question with another question. Since I asked 1st, tell me what loving your enemies means to you please.
HP, you seriously need to stop dwelling on all the evil in the world and do something more constructive with those emotions..
S
Susanna
Guest
I don’t get one thing. Why is there a pack of people attacking one person when she’s sharing her thoughts? One can agree or not, but backsassing is not a good solution to anything.
Umm... We're expressing our thoughts as well.
The op has dished out plenty. You appear increasingly to be one of those that equate disagreement with attacking.
Is your middle name devil's advocate?
L
LadyInWaiting
Guest
I find it really ironic that you believe rapists cannot be saved. That's the whole point of the Gospel, hun. Everyone can be saved if they believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as their savior.
By believing that rapists cannot be saved, you are undermining the power of His work on the cross. Which in turn, would mean you are in danger of losing your salvation. You have to believe Jesus paid the price for all of it and for anyone who believes in Him. It seems like you don't believe this.
By believing that rapists cannot be saved, you are undermining the power of His work on the cross. Which in turn, would mean you are in danger of losing your salvation. You have to believe Jesus paid the price for all of it and for anyone who believes in Him. It seems like you don't believe this.
Read my earlier posts about wolves. It seems you don't believe that there are evil people in this world who don't want to be saved. Take it up with God, not me.I find it really ironic that you believe rapists cannot be saved. That's the whole point of the Gospel, hun. Everyone can be saved if they believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as their savior.
By believing that rapists cannot be saved, you are undermining the power of His work on the cross. Which in turn, would mean you are in danger of losing your salvation. You have to believe Jesus paid the price for all of it and for anyone who believes in Him. It seems like you don't believe this.
Why does everyone take dispute with what I've said even though I've given scripture after scripture to support it? Are there really so many people who wish to live in a dream world where everybody, no matter how evil they are, gets to go to happy rainbow land in the very end?
Well, not me. I prefer to live with the uncomfortable but very real reality that there are people who do not want to be saved and get JOY out of causing other people's pain. Not even God can change a person's nature against their will.
I'm serious, if you want to argue with me any more, you're only validating my point. Take the Word of God for what it is, or answer for your "opinions" in the end.
Well, not me. I prefer to live with the uncomfortable but very real reality that there are people who do not want to be saved and get JOY out of causing other people's pain. Not even God can change a person's nature against their will.
I'm serious, if you want to argue with me any more, you're only validating my point. Take the Word of God for what it is, or answer for your "opinions" in the end.
I'm not going to apologize for what I believe simply because it might hurt someone's poor widdle feewings.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1: 20-23, 28-32 NIV
Romans 1: 20-23, 28-32 NIV
L
LadyInWaiting
Guest
So I'm just curious, what is your goal for this thread? Do you want to convince all of us that you are right? Or did you just want a discussion?
Consider this scenario: There is a person whom you know, from personal experience, to be cold, calculating, conniving, vicious, ruthless, destructive and treacherous. And then there is another person- the one who tells you that nobody is all bad, there is some good in everyone, you need to “see the good” in the first person, you will find the good in him if you just look hard enough, and if you can’t see the good, then you just haven’t tried.
People, trust me on this - if you have to look that hard to “find the good” in someone, IT ISN’T THERE! Anyone who would tell you that is very naïve, in deep denial, or has some personal interest in not rocking the boat and is vested in allowing the evil person to continue his destruction unchallenged.
Even if there was some tiny good point you could come up with, IT ISN’T RELEVANT. Someone who is malicious, heartless and abusive most of the time doesn’t deserve Brownie Points for occasionally doing something not horrible. Doing harm to others is not made any better by letting someone go ahead of you in line at the market. So what if we do find a “good” characteristic in an abuser?-maybe he likes animals or has a great sense of humor- does that mean we should now be more tolerant of his malevolence? So what if he gives money to charity? Does that mean we should “give him a break” and let his cruelty toward his family slide? No - a “good side” that you have to dig around , wrack your brain for, or stretch reality to find does not excuse or justify the obvious and blatant - that 99 % of the time, this person is cruel, vicious, destructive, wicked, and dangerous. Just because the dog sometimes eats out of the cat’s bowl doesn’t make him a cat.
Often, whenever an abuser behaves in a manner that is considered NORMAL for anyone else, others consider it NICE for him, when it is really the way he should be behaving all the time. They’re relieved and grateful that he’s being nice so they can relax and lower their guard a little. They consider this to be the abuser’s “good side”, when actually it is behavior that would be EXPECTED of anyone else.
Most evil people are clever and conniving enough to behave nicely or do something good once in a while - especially in front of others - precisely to throw you off and cause you to doubt your perception of them - and to cause OTHERS to doubt your perception. They purposely try to APPEAR nice to cover up their true nature. In fact, they will often go to great lengths to disguise what they really are - many of them are well-liked in their communities, regularly do volunteer work or are well-respected church members. You can see how well this works by how many misguided people will tell you that you haven’t tried hard enough to “find the good” in someone you know to be evil. Keep in mind that, even when the wicked do something that outwardly appears good, they are only doing it because it is somehow advantageous to them. Their motive is not to help others, but to benefit themselves - but even that is only worth inconveniencing themselves for only so much.
Jesus teaches us that not everyone who gives the false appearance of goodness or of being religious is truly righteous, and on Judgment Day he will weed out those who aren’t:
The Bible does not support the theory that there is some good in everyone, and in our hearts, we know this theory is full of holes, although we may hate to admit it. Although the “liberal tolerationists” choose not to see it, the truth is that there ARE people who truly have NO good in them! They are BAD people, through and through. People exist who serve Satan and are children of the devil. They are bad to the bone, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
Unfortunately, these wicked people hold down jobs, buy houses, marry and have children, just like normal people. Some of us have had the misfortune to be born one of these children.
Many Scriptures make clear distinctions between good people and bad people, children of God and children of the devil. In the Bible, it is black and white - there is no middle ground. Scriptures teach us to discern the spirit of a person by his fruits, as well as his deeds. A person, and his deeds, are either righteous or wicked – you can’t be a little bit of both:
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning…This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother….1 John 3: 7-8,10.
The Bible teaches us to recognize the acts of a sinful nature and tells us very clearly that those who live by their sinful nature are doomed to damnation.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God….Galatians 5:19.
Jesus teaches us to discern the spirit of a person by his fruits - his works and the results he produces with what he does in his life. Depending upon the righteousness or wickedness of his nature, everything he does, touches or influences will either be blessed or cursed. Jesus also warns us that an evil person can NEVER do good. He also illustrates what will eventually happen to evil people:
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them….Matthew 7: 16-20NIV.
There are people prowling the world, preying on others, who are reprobates, having what is known as a “Reprobate Mind”. There is absolutely nothing good about them. They are evil incarnate, wicked through and through. By definition, they are unsalvageable and doomed to damnation. How does one become a reprobate? By rejecting God so many times that God finally gives up on her and turns her over to the control of her own evil desires. (see Romans 1:28)
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called you but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me….Isaiah 65:12 NIV.
People, trust me on this - if you have to look that hard to “find the good” in someone, IT ISN’T THERE! Anyone who would tell you that is very naïve, in deep denial, or has some personal interest in not rocking the boat and is vested in allowing the evil person to continue his destruction unchallenged.
Even if there was some tiny good point you could come up with, IT ISN’T RELEVANT. Someone who is malicious, heartless and abusive most of the time doesn’t deserve Brownie Points for occasionally doing something not horrible. Doing harm to others is not made any better by letting someone go ahead of you in line at the market. So what if we do find a “good” characteristic in an abuser?-maybe he likes animals or has a great sense of humor- does that mean we should now be more tolerant of his malevolence? So what if he gives money to charity? Does that mean we should “give him a break” and let his cruelty toward his family slide? No - a “good side” that you have to dig around , wrack your brain for, or stretch reality to find does not excuse or justify the obvious and blatant - that 99 % of the time, this person is cruel, vicious, destructive, wicked, and dangerous. Just because the dog sometimes eats out of the cat’s bowl doesn’t make him a cat.
Often, whenever an abuser behaves in a manner that is considered NORMAL for anyone else, others consider it NICE for him, when it is really the way he should be behaving all the time. They’re relieved and grateful that he’s being nice so they can relax and lower their guard a little. They consider this to be the abuser’s “good side”, when actually it is behavior that would be EXPECTED of anyone else.
Most evil people are clever and conniving enough to behave nicely or do something good once in a while - especially in front of others - precisely to throw you off and cause you to doubt your perception of them - and to cause OTHERS to doubt your perception. They purposely try to APPEAR nice to cover up their true nature. In fact, they will often go to great lengths to disguise what they really are - many of them are well-liked in their communities, regularly do volunteer work or are well-respected church members. You can see how well this works by how many misguided people will tell you that you haven’t tried hard enough to “find the good” in someone you know to be evil. Keep in mind that, even when the wicked do something that outwardly appears good, they are only doing it because it is somehow advantageous to them. Their motive is not to help others, but to benefit themselves - but even that is only worth inconveniencing themselves for only so much.
Jesus teaches us that not everyone who gives the false appearance of goodness or of being religious is truly righteous, and on Judgment Day he will weed out those who aren’t:
The Bible does not support the theory that there is some good in everyone, and in our hearts, we know this theory is full of holes, although we may hate to admit it. Although the “liberal tolerationists” choose not to see it, the truth is that there ARE people who truly have NO good in them! They are BAD people, through and through. People exist who serve Satan and are children of the devil. They are bad to the bone, and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
Unfortunately, these wicked people hold down jobs, buy houses, marry and have children, just like normal people. Some of us have had the misfortune to be born one of these children.
Many Scriptures make clear distinctions between good people and bad people, children of God and children of the devil. In the Bible, it is black and white - there is no middle ground. Scriptures teach us to discern the spirit of a person by his fruits, as well as his deeds. A person, and his deeds, are either righteous or wicked – you can’t be a little bit of both:
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning…This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother….1 John 3: 7-8,10.
The Bible teaches us to recognize the acts of a sinful nature and tells us very clearly that those who live by their sinful nature are doomed to damnation.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God….Galatians 5:19.
Jesus teaches us to discern the spirit of a person by his fruits - his works and the results he produces with what he does in his life. Depending upon the righteousness or wickedness of his nature, everything he does, touches or influences will either be blessed or cursed. Jesus also warns us that an evil person can NEVER do good. He also illustrates what will eventually happen to evil people:
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them….Matthew 7: 16-20NIV.
There are people prowling the world, preying on others, who are reprobates, having what is known as a “Reprobate Mind”. There is absolutely nothing good about them. They are evil incarnate, wicked through and through. By definition, they are unsalvageable and doomed to damnation. How does one become a reprobate? By rejecting God so many times that God finally gives up on her and turns her over to the control of her own evil desires. (see Romans 1:28)
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called you but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me….Isaiah 65:12 NIV.
What I want is to contribute to educating Christians who are either willfully ignorant or simply don't know. This idea that "no one is beyond redemption" is NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!! SHOW ME A VERSE WHERE IT SAYS THAT!!!!!! THE BIBLE MAKES A DISTINCTION BETWEEN SINNERS AND WOLVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know you all desire to call me "hard hearted" and "unforgiving." Well, like I said, TAKE IT UP WITH GOD! HIS MERCY AND GRACE ARE NOT A FREE FOR ALL! THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HATE HIM AND HIS PEOPLE AND RESIGN THEMSELVES TO THAT HATRED! GET THAT IN YOUR MIND PEOPLE! READ YOUR BIBLES AND THINK FOR ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!