Rapists Cannot Be Saved
- Thread starter HistoryPrincess
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In all honesty, I can understand how you feel about your anger for a person who committed the grievous evil act of rape.
Now, I am not a man prone to violence, or having anger issues but if an animal (man) raped my wife, daughter or mother, and I had access to a gun I would probably blow off his head and send him to hell.
Perhaps, while in my jail cell awaiting trial for murder I could learn the more mature, positive spiritual approach in regards to revenge, and possibly learning how to love my enemies as well. I would probably plead temporary insanity, and with the right jury, could possibly be declared innocent even though, truthfully, I was guilty.
"Revenge is mine" says the Lord. I believe that it says that in the bible. In all fairness, despite my reasons, though guilty I would not want God to be fair with me and punish me for what I deserve, but rather would desire His great mercy and compassion for those that are now sorry that they have sinned against Him. That mercy would extend as well to a rapist who was truly remorseful for what he had done to another innocent human being.
If you want to be really 'saved' you have to stop playing scripture-tennis.
I have a very gentle, passive, caring nature. But I never chose that for myself. Its just what I've been given to work with.
(I feel my nature/spirit might be a lot like your's HP - and several people think I have autism/Aspergers.)
We don't get to choose the nature/spirit, or body and mind we experience life through. God chooses for us.
Because Adam and Eve naturally listened to the serpent, the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden... (Genesis 3:22)
And so, if you had a rifle, would you shoot a cheetah dead before it caught and killed the gazelle?
God has made some of us cheetah's, some of us gazelles, and some of us a bunch of other things, so that we may become like Him through the knowledge of good and evil.
God is orchestrating this whole production, and we are the players, the cheetahs and zebras.
(and some of us are the John Merrick's - worth Wikipedia-ing)
...and so here comes the 'live for ever' bit...
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12)
"It is necessary to pass through many troubles on our way into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
I have had a few trials to endure in my time here. And now I am what I am because of those trials.
And sometimes I have cursed God because of my trials.
And sometimes I am filled with hate and warn God to not pull that prodigal son crap and have a feast for the 'bad' people.
But, today if He said to me, "if you so choose, I will rewind Creation and you may play a part without any trials, or as one of the 'bad' players, and you will then be the product of that life", I would say "No, and, thank You".
Anyway, that's what I think.
I have a very gentle, passive, caring nature. But I never chose that for myself. Its just what I've been given to work with.
(I feel my nature/spirit might be a lot like your's HP - and several people think I have autism/Aspergers.)
We don't get to choose the nature/spirit, or body and mind we experience life through. God chooses for us.
Because Adam and Eve naturally listened to the serpent, the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden... (Genesis 3:22)
And so, if you had a rifle, would you shoot a cheetah dead before it caught and killed the gazelle?
God has made some of us cheetah's, some of us gazelles, and some of us a bunch of other things, so that we may become like Him through the knowledge of good and evil.
God is orchestrating this whole production, and we are the players, the cheetahs and zebras.
(and some of us are the John Merrick's - worth Wikipedia-ing)
...and so here comes the 'live for ever' bit...
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12)
"It is necessary to pass through many troubles on our way into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
I have had a few trials to endure in my time here. And now I am what I am because of those trials.
And sometimes I have cursed God because of my trials.
And sometimes I am filled with hate and warn God to not pull that prodigal son crap and have a feast for the 'bad' people.
But, today if He said to me, "if you so choose, I will rewind Creation and you may play a part without any trials, or as one of the 'bad' players, and you will then be the product of that life", I would say "No, and, thank You".
Anyway, that's what I think.
If we really study the scripture closely,
we'll find that God views all of our sin as so depraved,
and so wicked,
that none of us are any better than the worst rapist.
If you think YOU are savable, and a rapist is not...
you have way too high of an opinion of yourself.
Anyone can receive salvation in Christ.
Even those who are so self righteous they think others cannot.
...
John 3:16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life.
Saul who became Paul killed Christians and Christ still saved him.
16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life.
Saul who became Paul killed Christians and Christ still saved him.
P
Poinsetta
Guest
I believe that too. Just listen to those beautiful amazing testimonies of forgiveness and reconciliation. The world has tv shows of a long lost son or daughter who found her mother after years of being apart. That is so beautiful. I don’t think anyone can forbid that only God is the judge.
brings to mind...
"Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. "
I agree with you in "that none of us are any better than the worst rapist."..., but,....
sometimes, helplessly, the anger and hatred swells up inside us, and we just got to vent!!!
and venting don't mean you don't got Love!
In most of the Imprecatory Psalms there is a pattern of a call for the ungodly to repent, followed by prayers for judgement on the unrepentant ungodly.
EVERY time we pray the "Our Father" it could be seen as imprecatory, "Your Kingdom come" is us praying for judgement on the ungodly.
But Jesus called for us NOW to love our enemies. And Paul tells us that loving our enemies will actually INCREASE their punishment. So if you really want to make these people suffer, then the best thing you can do is love them, and let THE LORD mete out justice and punishment.
Okay. This is something I need to clear up for EVERYONE.
There was a recent article published at The Gospel Coalition titled Beware of Broken Wolves. While I appreciate the notion that we need to beware of wolves, this idea that wolves are broken is something that has permeated the church and has no biblical basis.
I know about people who have spoken to dozens of churches in recent months and I can assure you that the vast majority of them are sympathetic to the wolves who are child rapists (this is not to suggest that only child rapists are wolves). "We need to gently restore this brother" is the mantra of the day. It’s become so predictable that we expect this phrase to roll off the lips of church leaders as blood and flesh are dripping from the wolf's. I and many others have grown weary of churches who want to nurture the wolves back to "health."
The root of the problem is that church leaders don't really think in terms of sheep and wolves. They are thinking like sheep, so they assume that wolves are really just broken sheep who can repent and come back to the sheep pen. They are not. They are wolves. Genuine wolves. Wolves do not convert into sheep. They disguise themselves as sheep. This is a crucial difference. What church leaders overlook is how wolves are described in Scripture and, most importantly, that Jesus and his disciples never spoke to their conversion or repentance.
Jesus used word pictures to drive his points home. He used parables and metaphors to describe the Gospel. He used images that connected the brain to the heart and moved people to action. When he was on a rural mountain, he told his disciples to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves" (Matthew 7:15 ESV). He was in sheep country. It's likely that there were sheep grazing within eyesight of the disciples as Jesus was preaching this very lesson.
No shepherd would have heard these words and thought Jesus was calling them to be gentle, kind, or understanding of a wolf. Shepherds didn’t sit wolves down and say, "What pain is in your life to make you like this?" In fact, in this context Jesus didn’t speak of pain at all. He spoke in terms of fruit! "You will recognize them by their fruit...the diseased tree bears bad fruit." He shifts images from a wolf to a tree.
Does God's justice require the wolves to turn their hearts and become sheep, or the bad trees to become good trees? NO! In fact, Jesus's words are chilling: "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:19, 20). There was never a plea to rescue them from the flames, like we find in Jude 1:23. A clear distinction was made between sinners and wolves.
In John 10, Jesus describes himself as the Good Shepherd who is the door for the sheep. Those who enter by way of the door will find pasture. What about the wolf? Does Jesus call him a "brother?" Does he speak about his or her pain? Let's listen to His words, "The thief only comes to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10). Is Jesus clear enough? This is who they are. Though they deceive and disguise themselves as sheep, they are not sheep. They never were. Their diabolic mission, their very identity is to seek sheep to devour. They have no interest in repentance.
We also have the tendency to apply "wolf" to people in the church who cause division. Not all people who cause division are wolves. Some people are like wrecking balls and they are so ignorant they don’t even know it. Others are well intentioned but still manage to run people off.
When the Bible describes wolves, it’s not describing what they do. It's describing who they ARE. Wolves are not other Christians with whom we disagree. Wolves are not "brothers" or "sisters" who got caught up in sin either. Wolves ARE what they ARE. They are WOLVES. They are DIABOLIC. They CRAVE the flesh of innocent lambs. And they will do ANYTHING to kill and destroy the souls of people.
Contrast the descriptions and responses often given in churches who have child rapists with the truths of the Bible.
Here are the things most often heard:
He's a pillar of the community.
This man is one of my best friends.
I believe he genuinely loves the Lord.
We are willing to do whatever it takes to help guide him back to the Lord.
We want him to be surrounded with love.
The Lord expects us to forgive.
The Lord hates the sin and loves the sinner.
Everyone has abandoned him, it's our duty to rally around him.
He's been a member of this church for 30 years.
Nobody is beyond redemption.
The Lord's grace is sufficient.
Here are some of the things the Bible says about wolves and false prophets who, by the way, are false teachers because their goal is to ultimately destroy the souls of God's children:
The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph 5:6)
Evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (2 Tim 3:13)
Secretly bring in destructive heresies, irrational animals, creatures of instinct. Born to be caught and destroyed, they count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you they have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained for greed. Accursed children! Following the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. Waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them, the gloom of utter darkness is reserved. They entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. The dog returns to its own vomit. The sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire. (all the above from 2 Peter 2)
Make no mistake. Genuine wolves derive pleasure in inflicting harm on innocent souls, and the most effective way to do this is to do it in the name of Jesus. Why do we fail to see what's already clearly laid out in the Bible? I'll tell you why. We don't want to believe someone can live without a conscience and do wicked, wicked things with no remorse. Well, people like that exist. The Bible says they exist.
I will stick with the Bible, the Word of God, rather than the sloppy cheap grace of man, which isn't really grace at all, but COWARDICE!
There was a recent article published at The Gospel Coalition titled Beware of Broken Wolves. While I appreciate the notion that we need to beware of wolves, this idea that wolves are broken is something that has permeated the church and has no biblical basis.
I know about people who have spoken to dozens of churches in recent months and I can assure you that the vast majority of them are sympathetic to the wolves who are child rapists (this is not to suggest that only child rapists are wolves). "We need to gently restore this brother" is the mantra of the day. It’s become so predictable that we expect this phrase to roll off the lips of church leaders as blood and flesh are dripping from the wolf's. I and many others have grown weary of churches who want to nurture the wolves back to "health."
The root of the problem is that church leaders don't really think in terms of sheep and wolves. They are thinking like sheep, so they assume that wolves are really just broken sheep who can repent and come back to the sheep pen. They are not. They are wolves. Genuine wolves. Wolves do not convert into sheep. They disguise themselves as sheep. This is a crucial difference. What church leaders overlook is how wolves are described in Scripture and, most importantly, that Jesus and his disciples never spoke to their conversion or repentance.
Jesus used word pictures to drive his points home. He used parables and metaphors to describe the Gospel. He used images that connected the brain to the heart and moved people to action. When he was on a rural mountain, he told his disciples to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves" (Matthew 7:15 ESV). He was in sheep country. It's likely that there were sheep grazing within eyesight of the disciples as Jesus was preaching this very lesson.
No shepherd would have heard these words and thought Jesus was calling them to be gentle, kind, or understanding of a wolf. Shepherds didn’t sit wolves down and say, "What pain is in your life to make you like this?" In fact, in this context Jesus didn’t speak of pain at all. He spoke in terms of fruit! "You will recognize them by their fruit...the diseased tree bears bad fruit." He shifts images from a wolf to a tree.
Does God's justice require the wolves to turn their hearts and become sheep, or the bad trees to become good trees? NO! In fact, Jesus's words are chilling: "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:19, 20). There was never a plea to rescue them from the flames, like we find in Jude 1:23. A clear distinction was made between sinners and wolves.
In John 10, Jesus describes himself as the Good Shepherd who is the door for the sheep. Those who enter by way of the door will find pasture. What about the wolf? Does Jesus call him a "brother?" Does he speak about his or her pain? Let's listen to His words, "The thief only comes to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10). Is Jesus clear enough? This is who they are. Though they deceive and disguise themselves as sheep, they are not sheep. They never were. Their diabolic mission, their very identity is to seek sheep to devour. They have no interest in repentance.
We also have the tendency to apply "wolf" to people in the church who cause division. Not all people who cause division are wolves. Some people are like wrecking balls and they are so ignorant they don’t even know it. Others are well intentioned but still manage to run people off.
When the Bible describes wolves, it’s not describing what they do. It's describing who they ARE. Wolves are not other Christians with whom we disagree. Wolves are not "brothers" or "sisters" who got caught up in sin either. Wolves ARE what they ARE. They are WOLVES. They are DIABOLIC. They CRAVE the flesh of innocent lambs. And they will do ANYTHING to kill and destroy the souls of people.
Contrast the descriptions and responses often given in churches who have child rapists with the truths of the Bible.
Here are the things most often heard:
He's a pillar of the community.
This man is one of my best friends.
I believe he genuinely loves the Lord.
We are willing to do whatever it takes to help guide him back to the Lord.
We want him to be surrounded with love.
The Lord expects us to forgive.
The Lord hates the sin and loves the sinner.
Everyone has abandoned him, it's our duty to rally around him.
He's been a member of this church for 30 years.
Nobody is beyond redemption.
The Lord's grace is sufficient.
Here are some of the things the Bible says about wolves and false prophets who, by the way, are false teachers because their goal is to ultimately destroy the souls of God's children:
The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph 5:6)
Evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (2 Tim 3:13)
Secretly bring in destructive heresies, irrational animals, creatures of instinct. Born to be caught and destroyed, they count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you they have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained for greed. Accursed children! Following the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. Waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them, the gloom of utter darkness is reserved. They entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. The dog returns to its own vomit. The sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire. (all the above from 2 Peter 2)
Make no mistake. Genuine wolves derive pleasure in inflicting harm on innocent souls, and the most effective way to do this is to do it in the name of Jesus. Why do we fail to see what's already clearly laid out in the Bible? I'll tell you why. We don't want to believe someone can live without a conscience and do wicked, wicked things with no remorse. Well, people like that exist. The Bible says they exist.
I will stick with the Bible, the Word of God, rather than the sloppy cheap grace of man, which isn't really grace at all, but COWARDICE!
Let me make this clear everyone. I will stand up for the BIBLE, not my own opinions! Even if I have to do it alone, I will defend the innocent and send the wicked over to Satan!
Neither YOU or I get to pick and choose and pick certain parts of the Bible we like and drop the parts we don't like. As a Christian, I'm called to minister to VICTIMS, not their OPPRESSORS! I long and wait for the day when people will finally wake up to the fact that they've been woefully deceived, that the church nowadays is the worst place to go for victims and an easy haven for abusers. I long for and wait for the day when we will easily be able to separate sheep from wolves!
Neither YOU or I get to pick and choose and pick certain parts of the Bible we like and drop the parts we don't like. As a Christian, I'm called to minister to VICTIMS, not their OPPRESSORS! I long and wait for the day when people will finally wake up to the fact that they've been woefully deceived, that the church nowadays is the worst place to go for victims and an easy haven for abusers. I long for and wait for the day when we will easily be able to separate sheep from wolves!
Do none of you think God gets angry over things like rape and abuse? Does he get less angry than me? NO! His anger, his wrath, is infinitely WORSE than mine! I'm more than glad I won't have to face it on Judgment Day!
And I'm glad I don't have to trust in the church. I have Jesus!
And I'm glad I don't have to trust in the church. I have Jesus!
Even though your opinion is that rapists cannot be saved...If God's anger and wrath are worse than yours, why then do you
feel the need to go about casting your own brand of judgment?.
Its almost as if your understanding is that you are the one they are sinning against. It's not about you.
When a person sins, they do it against God.. In psalms its about the Lord God's judgments for sins and things done against Him or his people, and ultimately about Him being glorified through whatever it is He was going to do as a solution in that judgement as a conclusion.
The people of old knew to put God first because when they would pray they would do it with the understanding that God was judge first....Also they would prophesy what God would do, not according to the persons own judgments, but according to God's judgement in righteousness... Also the people would emphasize being in righteousness themselves so that judgement could be passed.
When most modern people judge its based on what they want based on their own understanding judgment/ brands of justice, and it is separate from God. They make it so that its not even about Him being the judge or glorifying himself in it, or about righteousness. Its more or less about an egoistic will, and denial of self, and things pertaining to self breaks down that stronghold.
Job had to find out the hard way that all things he believed to be pertaining to himself wasn't even about him.. His family, his assets and his health. So when all was taken away, he crumbled exposing the truth of where his faith and understanding really was. All things are about God, in one form or another, things understood, and things not known, he has the intentions to glorify Himself through them all.
All things were created through Him and for him, and the end result is always Him glorifying himself through it as a conclusion/solution in righteousness. Often times the beginning and end are neglected, and a persons perspective is only in the middle (what is seen/obvious without truth), so they can only come to their own conclusion/judgments rather than see/know/live to truth.
As for sheep and wolves, its easy to tell who's who with the more understanding a person has.
Oh my word, how many times do I have to keep saying it?
GOD DID NOT "ALLOW" SATAN TO TAKE FROM JOB! HE WAS SIMPLY STATING A FACT WHEN HE SAID ALL THAT JOB POSSESSED WAS IN SATAN'S POWER! SATAN IS THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD AND WILL BE UNTIL JESUS RETURNS! JOB HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF SATAN, THEREFORE HIS IDEA THAT GOD GIVES AND TAKES AWAY IS WRONG!!!!!!!! GOD GIVES!!!! SATAN TAKES AWAY!!!!!
I said "when all was taken away", I never said who took it, but in your eagerness to repeat what you stated, you missed a few things.
That's alright though.
I'm sorry, but this is a totally incorrect interpretation of Job, and that satan absolutely could do no more than the Lord allowed.
Why didn't satan kill Job? Why didn't satan kill Job's NEW kids, and destroy all the double portion possessions the Lord gave Job? I don't know where your'e getting this twist on Job, but ain't from Scripture.
God allows, and sometimes sends, satan and other malevolent spirits to act upon PEOPLE for HIS purposes. Job isn't the only one:
2 Corinthians 12:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Thorn in the Flesh
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Here is another rarely discussed account of a Heavenly Council meeting before the Lord, where a spirit is sent BY GOD to influence events on Earth:
God wants King Ahab killed. He asks for volunteers to accomplish this. A "spirit" basically says "I'm your guy Lord".
God says "ok, tell me your plan" The spirit is going to make people lie to the King. GOD sends him to do it:
1 Kings 22:19-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD SAID, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! THE LORD HAS PUT A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH of all these prophets of yours, AND THE LORD HAS DECLARED DISASTER AGAINST YOU”
God is in control. NOT satan! WE can rest assured that He is good all the time, and remember Romans 8:28
This post, above all your others, truly breaks my heart. First that you would consider the blessed gift of faith as a gamble, and then that you would under value the sacrifice of Christ. It is truly saddening.
God's wrath is just as real through Jesus as it is in the OT prophets. God hatred of sin is a fire that burns without end and will consume the wicked in total destruction for all eternity, making an example of their wickedness as the smoke of their torment accends before Him in righteous judgement for all eternity. There is no escape for the wicked on the day of evil. It is their ultimate end.
But in steps Jesus, the perfect and loving God-man. His death pays for all of the sins of His people. No matter how horrible or how great, He takes their death in their place and redeems them to God. If you cannot see this, if you cannot see the value of the cross and the righteousness of God displayed before all creation in the redemption of His people, them you do not know Christ. This is no gamble. This is no soft justice. This is a manifestation of the eternal righteousness and justice of almighty God. You need to repent and reread the scriptures. Mine them for every truth and see the beauty of God in His eternal redemption. I pray God will open your heart even as Lydia.
May God be the Judge