problem related to praying in tongues

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Student of the Word, If the 9 gifts are no more, you also must include salvation! It also is a gift!! (Eph 2:8-9!!!) So much for you being a student of the Word!
 
The strongest argument for the cessation of gifts offers I Cor 13:10 as prooftext as support, "but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away." However, two verses later, Paul the writer of 1 Cor, who had seen and heard Jesus speak to him, says, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." and the next verse, "And now, these three remain, faith, hope, love.." a different for of "now" is used, "nuni" where "arti" is used in the previous verse. Where arti indicates the immediate present, nuni indicates a present state distinct from what was before. Therefore, a valid assertion cannot be derived that faith hope, and love did away with the gifts.
 
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Mem said:
The strongest argument for the cessation of gifts offers I Cor 13:10 as prooftext as support, "but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away." However, two verses later, Paul the writer of 1 Cor, who had seen and heard Jesus speak to him, says, "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
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We see Dimly now following the Guidance of the Holy Spirit walking through sinful Eyes.
The Moment we Change and are able to see in a Perfect View and Viewpoint, the Truth about Who Our Lord and Savior will be revealed and we shall also know Him immediately as John 1:1, the WORD. And seeing that fulfills the Perfect to Come.
 
Niki7 said:
Yes I understand your position as I've read some of your responses. I am neither Pentecostal or Charismatic. You don't have to be either to experience spiritual gifts and that is a major mistake cessationists make.

As far as pushing tongues? I have never done that. The op is about tongues; so are my responses. Whatever an op is about is what I will try to follow, not withstanding all the rabbit holes a thread can go down ;)

Not to offend anyone here, but I will never ever darken the door of a Pentecostal church again. My worst experiences with Christians can all be traced back to Pentecostals and I mean actual damage. As for Charismatics? While there are actually churches referring to themselves as such, at one time, if I remember correctly, it was simply meant for a Christian, non-Pentecostal, who believed the spiritual gifts were still valid and probably spoke in tongues.

I do not see a connection between James and what Paul says about tongues, one is a spiritual gift and the other is the human tongue which can and does set the world on fire. We are responsible for our words. I don't and never have faked anything. You can pray in tongues (silently) in any church or any place as you should be in control. The gift...any gift...should never control a person and there are plenty of videos on youtube where you see the opposite. Such as people jerking uncontrollably or head bobbing or shrieking. IMO, these folks might need some deliverance from demons as that is not the Holy Spirit.

We could have one very long chat over coffee but I really cannot get into everything here. But, the bottom line is that I firmly believe the gifts are real and tongues included. I also believe that much of what goes on in some churches is absolutely fake with everyone saying how wonderful they feel no matter how bizarre the goings on are.

I am thankful I was not raised in a Pentecostal church. I have or had actually, a family member who went sideways when she became involved with Pentecostals and she messed up the lives of everyone around her.
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don't beat yourself up because you were not raised in a pentacostel home. Nobody is perfect :)
 
I think when it comes to some believing in "Spirit forced", & "If they don't want it it wont happen", we should never forget some very important facts:
1. In order to be used in the gifts, one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yes, everyone recieves the "gift" of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but not everyone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is a separate event.
2. H.S. baptized christians will still not manifest all the gifts unless: A. They must be yielded & submitted to the Holy Spirit. B. They have the choice to manifest the gift or not.

No gift can be manifested unless the Spirit gives utterance or empowerment to do so. Anything beyond this is faking & abusing the gifts.
 
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Edify said:
I think when it comes to some believing in "Spirit forced", & "If they don't want it it wont happen", we should never forget some very important facts:
1. In order to be used in the gifts, one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yes, everyone recieves the "gift" of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but not everyone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is a separate event.
2. H.S. baptized christians will still not manifest all the gifts unless: A. They must be yielded & submitted to the Holy Spirit. B. They have the choice to manifest the gift or not.

No gift can be manifested unless the Spirit gives utterance or empowerment to do so. Anything beyond this is faking & abusing the gifts.
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What about that pesky old "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" scripture? When you are baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit, that IS the spiritual baptism. That's the only way to reconcile that scripture with all the others.
The one baptism is the water baptism that Jesus commanded us to do.... the spiritual baptism is just that... an immersion into the Spirit of God.
 
wolfwint said:
The question is who is the source!
If you take f.e. the speaking in tongues by receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and 10, then this were languages which could be understand (different human languages). While the speaking in tongues which is taught since 1901 is against the expection of the first pentecostals not an human language which could be understood from people.
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So if someone prays in say Greek or something, and a German like yourself does not understand it, does it somehow negate that prayer?

There are such big holes in constantly saying what you say above, that a universe could squeeze through :giggle:
 
Edify said:
I think when it comes to some believing in "Spirit forced", & "If they don't want it it wont happen", we should never forget some very important facts:
1. In order to be used in the gifts, one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yes, everyone recieves the "gift" of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but not everyone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is a separate event.
2. H.S. baptized christians will still not manifest all the gifts unless: A. They must be yielded & submitted to the Holy Spirit. B. They have the choice to manifest the gift or not.

No gift can be manifested unless the Spirit gives utterance or empowerment to do so. Anything beyond this is faking & abusing the gifts.
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amen I think need to explain the difference between indwelled and Come upon by the Holy Spirit empowerment, which is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, said in the Gospel of John chapter 1 and By Jesus in Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8
 
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hornetguy said:
What about that pesky old "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" scripture? When you are baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit, that IS the spiritual baptism. That's the only way to reconcile that scripture with all the others.
The one baptism is the water baptism that Jesus commanded us to do.... the spiritual baptism is just that... an immersion into the Spirit of God.
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the contact of the Word Baptism in English has more than one meaning. However, Jesus was very clear the Holy Spirit would be "in you " and come "Upon you" IN and upon. The Comforter is one who comes along side to help as the Greek says.
 
Niki7 said:
So if someone prays in say Greek or something, and a German like yourself does not understand it, does it somehow negate that prayer?

There are such big holes in constantly saying what you say above, that a universe could squeeze through :giggle:
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The answer is no; read 1sam and Hanna's prayer in the temple. She was perceived to be drunk. And the scriptures tell she spoke no words only her mouth was moving. Did not God answer her prayer?

The day of Pentacost on the empowering of the Holy Spirit. They said they were drunk.

Many things are done that are supernatural appear foolish to the unlearned.
 
CS1 said:
The answer is no; read 1sam and Hanna's prayer in the temple. She was perceived to be drunk. And the scriptures tell she spoke no words only her mouth was moving. Did not God answer her prayer?

The day of Pentacost on the empowering of the Holy Spirit. They said they were drunk.

Many things are done that are supernatural appear foolish to the unlearned.
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Right. I know that :) But I was replying to wolfwint who insists we should always understand tongues. Does not matter how many many times you point out what Paul writes in I Corinthians. Those passages should be SPEEDBUMPS for those who are cessationists but they just ignore them.
 
Niki7 said:
Right. I know that :) But I was replying to wolfwint who insists we should always understand tongues. Does not matter how many many times you point out what Paul writes in I Corinthians. Those passages should be SPEEDBUMPS for those who are cessationists, but they just ignore them.
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LOL, I have had my run-ins with him, and he knows everything, so, good luck.
 
Trying to see if people are alive here:


have you ever saw something so sinful and shameful you felt anger rising up inside you before you and your body were caught up to the same level?

God inside us sees what we see. It Angers Him, it hurts Hims way before we get it, but then we start getting angry or hurt about it ourselves. Speaking in Tongues is no different. When the Holy Spirit gives the Utterances, you just follow that leading.
 
hornetguy said:
What about that pesky old "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" scripture? When you are baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit, that IS the spiritual baptism. That's the only way to reconcile that scripture with all the others.
The one baptism is the water baptism that Jesus commanded us to do.... the spiritual baptism is just that... an immersion into the Spirit of God.
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Uuuummm....no.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Are you sure that that is how the gift of SUPERNATURALLY speaking in a foreign language works? Here is what we actually see: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue [LANGUAGE], wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues [LANGUAGES] the wonderful works of God.
(Acts 2:7-11).

Why did Paul insist that there be an interpreter for anyone attempting to speak a foreign language supernaturally? Because a strange language needs to be interpreted to make sense.
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Many people do not know every language.
 
Flannery said:
I see what you're driving at but let me look at it logically. Pentecostals pray in tongues without knowing it, I've heard the reports before. A speaker with the gift speaks in his own language, but hearers who know only another language as their own hear it in that one anyway, because of the Holy Spirit. Since no language is unknown to God, a prayer said in that context would still make perfect sense to all concerned.
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When I was in the USAF, I often witnessed to Muslims that way.
 
TheLearner said:
problem related to praying in tongues

Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matt 26:36
Then Jesus came with them to a garden called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples: "Sit down here while I go and pray yonder."

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/search?q=pray+garden&translation=all

Praying like in Pentecostal / Charismatic Churches violates the teaching of Jesus above.
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You left out that Paul legitimize the gift of tongues in church if there is a translator presence, both gifts are by the Spirit of God, through man (oops, mankind).

There is also a difference in the prayer language that is for every believe who is baptized in the Spirit and the gift of tongues which is a supernatural message from God.
 
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