free will.....Free Will..........FREE WILL.............FREE WILL.......FREE WILL!
(can not say that enough........)
as the professor wrote on his notes. Repeat often and shout loud, argument weak here,
predestination vs freewill
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as the professor wrote on his notes. Repeat often and shout loud, argument weak here,
D
Depleted
Guest
Trying again. lol
You said you were trying to understand predestination and could go either way after seeking it out in the whole Bible. It's like trying to understand the word happiness from the Declaration of Independence. It's important enough a concept to make the final cut for the document, but it's not what the document is about. Both the Declaration and Romans are manifestos. Instead of trying to tackle one word in it (either document) take it as a whole document. It helps to see the whole, instead of fixating on one small aspect. And in understanding the whole, it may, or may not, clarify that one part for you. I think I have what predestination is pretty well. I don't have it fully, because I am linear and God isn't. I don't think I'll ever get it fully in this body. But, it helped me get the whole though.
That's all. Wasn't arguing. (I think that's where so many get upset with me. They think I'm arguing against them, when I'm just taking something out fuller, and hoping I can get others to think outside the box occasionally. Even, if they go outside the box on the other side from me. lol)
Oh brother. Yeah. You have me shaking in my boots. You invent stuff -- whatever. You repeat the invented stuff. You pretend I said it. I corrected you.
Oh, and it's summertime, so no boots. Not even shoes.
It's not working this time.....
God is omnipotent and omniscient. We cannot acknowledge is omniscience but somehow relegate his omnipotence to second fiddle to man's actions and desires. Free will of man implies that man can do things that God does want them to do and that might be contrary to God's design and ultimate plan.
How can something that was created and had absolutely no control over its existence somehow develop the ability to effectuate outcomes that are inconsistent with its creator (which we concede is all powerful)? What was the purpose of having 4 major prophets and 12 minor prophets preach the future of mankind to the people if one individual could by his or her free will change it?
Did Peter have free will after Jesus declared that he would deny him 3 times before the cock crowed? Could he have acknowledged Jesus after that once it was prophesized that in those three instances he wouldn't? Could Judas have not pointed out Jesus and abandoned his betrayal of Christ after he was given the sop? According to those who believe in free will the answers to those questions would have to be yes. But in so answering they implicitly would prove God to be a liar. If God makes a prediction concerning an individual, and the individual then does otherwise, what does that say about God's authority.
The sound reasoning is that free will is an illusion. In fact proponents of free will cannot cite one scripture where the term "free will" is used in the King James Version where it does not relate to offerings to the temple or the church.
In analyzing free will juxtaposed with the recent school tragedy, we have 17 decedents, scores of family members, We have at least 14 injured, their family members, the community and the world at large. The vast majority of this world would have desired, prayed, willed that such an event not happen.
When those poor innocent children faced this madman/coward, I am sure they all had a will to live, to become doctors, to become parents and own homes, etc. etc. etc. Why is it that free will proponents in such situations advance the "free will" of the perpetrator but not the free will of the victims? Didn't they have the ability to will their fate not to be as a victim of this monster who according to proponents was "exercising free will"?
What made his "free will" superior to the billions of humans who would have never willed, prayed for or dreamed of such a horrific event let alone commit it?
Free will is often the cousin of choices. In fact free will is often used interchangeably with free choice. Take the two teenagers that experiment with drugs for the first time. One manages to maintain and gets into an Ivy League school and later becomes a wealthy public figure, and the other dies from an overdose the first time they ever tried the narcotic.
Didn't they both make the same "choice"? Why were the outcomes so different if choices are decisions we make independent of God's dominion? When same actions have different outcomes, clearly there are outside factors influencing the components which bring about the outcome. That outside factor is God. God has a hand on everything and every event that transpires. God had the power to not allow the overdose. God had the power to cause the ivy league graduate to languish in and out of rehab facilities for the rest of his life. The one who overdoses did not have a weaker will than the one who overcame.
As an all-knowing God, God knows exactly what sins a person will commit over the course of their lifetime- the ones before getting saved and the ones after. The parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example. We could reason that when the son returned to his father from his decadence, he was saved, but we know from the story, that he was always the son of the wealthy man. Salvation is more of a realization than a change in status. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, but the scripture says that he still smelled like death! Just because we are born again does not mean that we are not going to have the things that remind us and others of our previous circumstances. As Lazarus got acclimated to his "second chance" the stench of death wore off on him.
Amen.
How can something that was created and had absolutely no control over its existence somehow develop the ability to effectuate outcomes that are inconsistent with its creator (which we concede is all powerful)? What was the purpose of having 4 major prophets and 12 minor prophets preach the future of mankind to the people if one individual could by his or her free will change it?
Did Peter have free will after Jesus declared that he would deny him 3 times before the cock crowed? Could he have acknowledged Jesus after that once it was prophesized that in those three instances he wouldn't? Could Judas have not pointed out Jesus and abandoned his betrayal of Christ after he was given the sop? According to those who believe in free will the answers to those questions would have to be yes. But in so answering they implicitly would prove God to be a liar. If God makes a prediction concerning an individual, and the individual then does otherwise, what does that say about God's authority.
The sound reasoning is that free will is an illusion. In fact proponents of free will cannot cite one scripture where the term "free will" is used in the King James Version where it does not relate to offerings to the temple or the church.
In analyzing free will juxtaposed with the recent school tragedy, we have 17 decedents, scores of family members, We have at least 14 injured, their family members, the community and the world at large. The vast majority of this world would have desired, prayed, willed that such an event not happen.
When those poor innocent children faced this madman/coward, I am sure they all had a will to live, to become doctors, to become parents and own homes, etc. etc. etc. Why is it that free will proponents in such situations advance the "free will" of the perpetrator but not the free will of the victims? Didn't they have the ability to will their fate not to be as a victim of this monster who according to proponents was "exercising free will"?
What made his "free will" superior to the billions of humans who would have never willed, prayed for or dreamed of such a horrific event let alone commit it?
Free will is often the cousin of choices. In fact free will is often used interchangeably with free choice. Take the two teenagers that experiment with drugs for the first time. One manages to maintain and gets into an Ivy League school and later becomes a wealthy public figure, and the other dies from an overdose the first time they ever tried the narcotic.
Didn't they both make the same "choice"? Why were the outcomes so different if choices are decisions we make independent of God's dominion? When same actions have different outcomes, clearly there are outside factors influencing the components which bring about the outcome. That outside factor is God. God has a hand on everything and every event that transpires. God had the power to not allow the overdose. God had the power to cause the ivy league graduate to languish in and out of rehab facilities for the rest of his life. The one who overdoses did not have a weaker will than the one who overcame.
As an all-knowing God, God knows exactly what sins a person will commit over the course of their lifetime- the ones before getting saved and the ones after. The parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example. We could reason that when the son returned to his father from his decadence, he was saved, but we know from the story, that he was always the son of the wealthy man. Salvation is more of a realization than a change in status. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, but the scripture says that he still smelled like death! Just because we are born again does not mean that we are not going to have the things that remind us and others of our previous circumstances. As Lazarus got acclimated to his "second chance" the stench of death wore off on him.
Amen.
Did you miss reading Genesis chapter 3? Was Adam and Eve's disobedience "inconsistent" with their Creator? Absolutely. So the Bible itself refutes your false notion that God's creatures -- men and angels -- cannot do what is contrary to the character and will of God. And that is why Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
As to your claim that the Bible does NOT teach that human beings have free will, since the Bible is not a textbook on Systematic Theology, you will not find it stated as an axiom. However, the entire biblical narrative from Genesis to Revelation confirms that God gave human beings free will, and it continues to exist. Sinners either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel and that is sufficient proof. All human beings either listen to their conscience or ignore their conscience (see Romans 2). Then please note what this passage says (Mark 16:15,16):
And he [Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This indicates that there will be two groups of people. Those who believe and obey the Gospel and those who disbelieve and disobey the Gospel. If men had no free will and God was compelling all men, then all would believe and be saved, because that is what God desires and that is why Christ Jesus came into the world. But since God compels no one to obey the Gospel, it is quite clear that He leaves human beings to make a decision after having heard the Gospel.
But God predicted their disobedience and even foretold it in Genesis 2:17 [SUP]17[/SUP]but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
The scripture doesn't say, "if you eat from it"! It doesn't say, "if you decide or if you choose to"! It says WHEN!!! We cannot parse words. Are you suggesting that God did not know even though Jesus was one with God in spirit that Jesus would have to be sacrificed for the sins of Adam and Eve? Why was there a need for Jesus to come?
in Genesis 3:22 God says; [SUP] [/SUP]And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. This was God's justification for putting them out of Eden. Not that they had eaten of the fruit, but that they had become like "one of us". By allowing them to sin, it created a need for Christ to bring them back to God. Without knowledge of good or evil there would be no sin and therefore no need for a savior. Without a need for a savior there would be no need for an Almighty God.
We all disobey God just on different levels and to different degrees. Just as the disciples of Jesus were chosen, so are those written in the book of life. No prophet in the bible proclaimed, "I am going to grow up to be a prophet". They were all chosen. Jesus knew His role at a young age because of His relationship with God.
You speak of choices but fail to address Judas and Peter and a host of other Biblical characters who had no choice because of predestination. You quizzically omit the passages of Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" and Revelations 13:8; "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This passage clearly discloses the existence of people who are still alive who either are Satan's or God's. So clearly the determination as to who is going to Heaven and Hell is made before physical death.
A person may be unaware that they are sitting on a diamond mine and might live a poor life. That does not make them any the less rich in diamonds. The mission of Christians/disciples to preach and baptize is to bring people to realization of their own salvation not to get them to choose salvation. For many will hear and not listen. Not because they choose not to, but they were created not to.
How do you reconcile the passage in Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil"? A person is made by God to serve a purpose just as Judas was. Judas was not an anomaly. The passage clearly and unequivocally states, "all things". Psalms states in 58:3; "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". What choice did people coming out from the womb speaking lies have? Their fate was decided before they could even formulate an ability from a human/physical perspective to be evil.
We have to be thankful that we were chosen, and not make the mistake of delusionally exalting ourselves to the level of our creator by assuming that we can do things apart from God's divine plan. A person who does that does nothing more than reveal to the redeemed the type of fruit they are. Satan also exalted himself as high as God and was cast out much like Adam was. But when it came time to considering the servant Job, he had to get explicit permission from the Almighty to vex Job. What choice did Job make to suffer at the hands of the wager that Satan futilely and foolishly made with God? God said that; "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8. How do we know that the horrors that we see and have seen such as the Holocaust are not wagers that God makes with the evil one to demonstrate to Satan God's supremacy and the resiliency of God's children to endure tremendous calamities and horrific crimes, but not lose their faith in the almighty so that they can be rewarded 1000 fold once their faith as demonstrated through the storm?
But Job's misfortune wasn't due to any choice he made! Just like the innocent children and adults who suffered in Parkland made no choices to suffer the fate they suffered. Sin's impact on the soul is heavy, but sin's impact on other victims is 1000 fold heavier. What makes people who believe in free will think that one person's sin can override the will and desires of 17 others? What about the grandmother who thwarted her grandson's inchoate massacre in the State of Washington? Didn't he make a choice to slaughter students also? Why was he unsuccessful and Cruz successful? Because of choice? Surely there must be some other ingredient in the mix. Bold grandma calls cops, thwarts grandson’s bloody school massacre.
Two planned massacres by young men. Two "choices" according to free willers to kill and to destroy lies of family members. Yet in one instance the "free will" is thwarted and in the other it isn't". How does free will account for such a discrepancy in outcomes? Two people play basketball 7 hours a day every day until it's time to go to college. One gets into UNC and goes to the NBA. The other rips his knee up and works at 7-11 for the rest of his life. Choices? Free will? I could cite 1000s and 1000s of examples of almost identical circumstances of individuals that result in completely different outcomes. Free will does not entail not being able to do that which you make a choice to do.
How can a force that knows our hearts, our thoughts and our desires, not know what our choices are going to be? Even your birth was not a choice that you made. The fact that you are engaging in this discussion is the product of divine intervention and not some free will decision you made to grace us with your presence on this Earth. When did God then relinquish his decision making authority to you? When you were first burped? When you started teething? Nursery school? You are able to write presumably and hear. What about the children that are born blind or deaf? What free will did they have to hear the music play or watch the sun set? I think the thought process as to how things are effectuated here on this planet needs to be seriously re-evaluated. We cannot claim we serve an almighty God who then haphazardly allows one coward to murder 17 but stops another one from even firing a bullet. We might not understand the reasons why God operates the way God does but to assume it is because God has given us some unfettered right to impose our will upon others without his authority and intervention trivializes his supremacy.
Choices? Free will? I don't think so.
The scripture doesn't say, "if you eat from it"! It doesn't say, "if you decide or if you choose to"! It says WHEN!!! We cannot parse words. Are you suggesting that God did not know even though Jesus was one with God in spirit that Jesus would have to be sacrificed for the sins of Adam and Eve? Why was there a need for Jesus to come?
in Genesis 3:22 God says; [SUP] [/SUP]And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. This was God's justification for putting them out of Eden. Not that they had eaten of the fruit, but that they had become like "one of us". By allowing them to sin, it created a need for Christ to bring them back to God. Without knowledge of good or evil there would be no sin and therefore no need for a savior. Without a need for a savior there would be no need for an Almighty God.
We all disobey God just on different levels and to different degrees. Just as the disciples of Jesus were chosen, so are those written in the book of life. No prophet in the bible proclaimed, "I am going to grow up to be a prophet". They were all chosen. Jesus knew His role at a young age because of His relationship with God.
You speak of choices but fail to address Judas and Peter and a host of other Biblical characters who had no choice because of predestination. You quizzically omit the passages of Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" and Revelations 13:8; "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This passage clearly discloses the existence of people who are still alive who either are Satan's or God's. So clearly the determination as to who is going to Heaven and Hell is made before physical death.
A person may be unaware that they are sitting on a diamond mine and might live a poor life. That does not make them any the less rich in diamonds. The mission of Christians/disciples to preach and baptize is to bring people to realization of their own salvation not to get them to choose salvation. For many will hear and not listen. Not because they choose not to, but they were created not to.
How do you reconcile the passage in Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil"? A person is made by God to serve a purpose just as Judas was. Judas was not an anomaly. The passage clearly and unequivocally states, "all things". Psalms states in 58:3; "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies". What choice did people coming out from the womb speaking lies have? Their fate was decided before they could even formulate an ability from a human/physical perspective to be evil.
We have to be thankful that we were chosen, and not make the mistake of delusionally exalting ourselves to the level of our creator by assuming that we can do things apart from God's divine plan. A person who does that does nothing more than reveal to the redeemed the type of fruit they are. Satan also exalted himself as high as God and was cast out much like Adam was. But when it came time to considering the servant Job, he had to get explicit permission from the Almighty to vex Job. What choice did Job make to suffer at the hands of the wager that Satan futilely and foolishly made with God? God said that; "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8. How do we know that the horrors that we see and have seen such as the Holocaust are not wagers that God makes with the evil one to demonstrate to Satan God's supremacy and the resiliency of God's children to endure tremendous calamities and horrific crimes, but not lose their faith in the almighty so that they can be rewarded 1000 fold once their faith as demonstrated through the storm?
But Job's misfortune wasn't due to any choice he made! Just like the innocent children and adults who suffered in Parkland made no choices to suffer the fate they suffered. Sin's impact on the soul is heavy, but sin's impact on other victims is 1000 fold heavier. What makes people who believe in free will think that one person's sin can override the will and desires of 17 others? What about the grandmother who thwarted her grandson's inchoate massacre in the State of Washington? Didn't he make a choice to slaughter students also? Why was he unsuccessful and Cruz successful? Because of choice? Surely there must be some other ingredient in the mix. Bold grandma calls cops, thwarts grandson’s bloody school massacre.
Two planned massacres by young men. Two "choices" according to free willers to kill and to destroy lies of family members. Yet in one instance the "free will" is thwarted and in the other it isn't". How does free will account for such a discrepancy in outcomes? Two people play basketball 7 hours a day every day until it's time to go to college. One gets into UNC and goes to the NBA. The other rips his knee up and works at 7-11 for the rest of his life. Choices? Free will? I could cite 1000s and 1000s of examples of almost identical circumstances of individuals that result in completely different outcomes. Free will does not entail not being able to do that which you make a choice to do.
How can a force that knows our hearts, our thoughts and our desires, not know what our choices are going to be? Even your birth was not a choice that you made. The fact that you are engaging in this discussion is the product of divine intervention and not some free will decision you made to grace us with your presence on this Earth. When did God then relinquish his decision making authority to you? When you were first burped? When you started teething? Nursery school? You are able to write presumably and hear. What about the children that are born blind or deaf? What free will did they have to hear the music play or watch the sun set? I think the thought process as to how things are effectuated here on this planet needs to be seriously re-evaluated. We cannot claim we serve an almighty God who then haphazardly allows one coward to murder 17 but stops another one from even firing a bullet. We might not understand the reasons why God operates the way God does but to assume it is because God has given us some unfettered right to impose our will upon others without his authority and intervention trivializes his supremacy.
Choices? Free will? I don't think so.
So you are suggesting that God programmed Adam and Eve to disobey Him! Do you see how ludicrous that sounds. Free choice and free will are IMPLIED in the commandment given by God. So let's review it and be clear that had Adam and Eve chosen to obey God, they could have done so. Indeed they were commanded to obey Him, and violated that command.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die... And he [God] said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (Gen 2:16,17; 3:11).
Human beings are not robots who have been programmed by God. Therefore they must choose good or evil, obedience or disobedience. And there are CONSEQUENCES in either direction.
Not until the offer to drink the living water in Re:21 as that is the start of the new earth. This earth is a seed-bank for the start of that era. Ge:3:15 and the two bruises isn't completed until the last verse in Re:19. This one verse pretty much explains why free-will is not available to all people.
Isa:34:5:
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven:
behold,
it shall come down upon Idumea,
and upon the people of my curse,
to judgment.
Jer:4:28:
For this shall the earth mourn,
and the heavens above be black:
because I have spoken it,
I have purposed it, and will not repent,
neither will I turn back from it.
One such prophecy.
Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
It is really quite simple. Just examine the use of "predestined" or "elect" in the New Testament. Those who would be saved by grace through faith would not simply be justified. They would be justified, sanctified, and glorified. For what purpose? "To be conformed to the image of [God's] Son". In other words, to be transformed into the likeness of Christ and perfected. And that is what predestination is all about. The PERFECTION of the saints. God does not simply want to save sinners from Hell. He wants to perfect the saints so that they eternally resemble Christ in every way. See 1 John 3:1-3 and other passages. The saints are to serve God for eternity as kings and priests.
Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person.
THESE VERSES SHOW HE LOVES ""ALL""
1 John 2:2 ""for the sins of the whole world"" John 1:29 ""which taketh away the sin of the world"" John 6:51 ""for the life of the world"" 1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"""
These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY sin & His payment encludes EVERY person """ALL""".
But it dosn't do ANYONE any good ""until they appropriate Christ's sin atoning redemptive sacrifice by faith/belief"".
THESE VERSES SHOW ITS ONLY OUR CHOICE THAT LIMITS ATONEMENT
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever believes on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)
EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE: "BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankinds salvation is: individual choice
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief. The only unforgivable sin, I.E. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is reject God's grace & Christ payment = UNBELIEF!
A favorite Calvinist scripture:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws reqiured payment for sin)
News Alert! Christ HAS made the payment: Note ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: The call to salvation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who are willing to believe.)
A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died and paid for the sins of every believer. That "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's thier FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's Death( sins wage paid), Burial and Resurrection(God's receipt, payment received & accepted).
The notion that a persons salvation is already fixed is wrong. The notion we choose all by ourselves is wrong. God offered us a pardon. If we will trust in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment.
It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's payment, that are we saved!
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person.
THESE VERSES SHOW HE LOVES ""ALL""
1 John 2:2 ""for the sins of the whole world"" John 1:29 ""which taketh away the sin of the world"" John 6:51 ""for the life of the world"" 1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"""
These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY sin & His payment encludes EVERY person """ALL""".
But it dosn't do ANYONE any good ""until they appropriate Christ's sin atoning redemptive sacrifice by faith/belief"".
THESE VERSES SHOW ITS ONLY OUR CHOICE THAT LIMITS ATONEMENT
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever believes on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)
EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE: "BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankinds salvation is: individual choice
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief. The only unforgivable sin, I.E. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is reject God's grace & Christ payment = UNBELIEF!
A favorite Calvinist scripture:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws reqiured payment for sin)
News Alert! Christ HAS made the payment: Note ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: The call to salvation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who are willing to believe.)
A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died and paid for the sins of every believer. That "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's thier FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's Death( sins wage paid), Burial and Resurrection(God's receipt, payment received & accepted).
The notion that a persons salvation is already fixed is wrong. The notion we choose all by ourselves is wrong. God offered us a pardon. If we will trust in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment.
It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's payment, that are we saved!
In a broad sense are you not saying that you had to choose and do something ?
Because by saying "I" placed my faith or by placing "our" faith you are denying God's grace and yet faith is a work.
1Thess. 1:3, 2Thess. 1:11
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Total occurrences for (predestined) is [ 0 ]
The whole population that is alive for the 1,000 years end up living in New Jerusalem in the new earth and they act as Priests and Kings to the very large group that make their homes outside of the walls of that city.
Isa:54:1:
Sing,
O barren,
thou that didst not bear;
break forth into singing,
and cry aloud,
thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife,
saith the LORD.
By the time judgment day is over which people have not been saved. I put it at '0'.
Strange reply when considering my post.
My last sentence said this > It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's payment, that are we saved!
Can you please supply the Scripture for man having free will in salvation, please? I would love to read them.
Man has free will to chose because God will not force him to do anything he don't want to do. He will fight back and not like a God that will force him to do things against his will. He must want to serve God on his own. How would you like it if I forced you to serve me?
Is that the FREE WILL as in Armenianalism or What?
Why God can use 'Elect' and 'Predestination'?????
Jesus tells us that once you are Saved, He or His father will lose no one...How does He know you will not change your mind (apostasy) and chose another way of life???
I bring these questions up as they are important in identifying GOD Himself. Someone in another post used the words;(omnipotent and omniscient).
Well, God is both of these words and more.. He is an author...An author of a TRUE story that takes some 6000 years to come true.
From the Beginning, God saw a timeline. He knows what happens every nanosecond (twinkle of an eye) along this timeline. The Book of His (The Holy Bible) tells us that He knew us before we were born and that He knows every hair on our head, etc.
So to He also knows what decisions we have made given a set of circumstances via OUR FREE WILL..
By inserting Himself at various places through out the timeline, He can visualize, hear, feel and taste the responses of each individual man/woman and Child in real time.
Let's take an example: Isaac and Abraham. Initially, there was probably neither a whole lot of response by Mankind to the fact that Abraham almost sacrificed his son at the request of GOD nor about where it took place nor the fact that Abraham's loyalty was being tested.
When it became known during the last 2000 years of the act of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac (his son) gave us a preview of someone (God) who gave the whole world His son (Jesus) for sacrifice. Would that increase the number of people through Free Will who would eventually come to believe in God?
I am pretty sure there was a response by Man Kind to the fact that God likes to test him and his veracity like He did Abraham.
How many became True (forever) believers when it became known that the place where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac was in fact the exact place where Jesus Christ (the Son of GOD) was sacrificed?
Jesus was crucified 2000+ years ago.
How many people throughout these 2000+years have through Free-Will; Accepted Jesus Christ, Rejected Him or have accepted him only to fall away? Rem, the word of God tells us, that falling away after tasting the benefits of the Holy Spirit, one could never return...In addition it also tells us; ' to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin!' WHAT???????
What Holy Spirit?????/.Did you not realize that if you became Saved in that timeline, you would also receive a future Holy Spirit.
Thereby ones Free-Will, a person could fall away from God and lose the Holy Spirit.
Thus God could use this timeline to determine who to keep and who not to keep based on their Free-will.
I would safely bet HE knew the answer to these questions eons before he created the Earth and the Heavens and of course Mankind.
Therefore your decisions today are entirely based on the Free-Will you displayed on a timeline that He saw eons ago and His decisions about you are based on that Free Will.
By playing all his cards (all of HIS interactions with Mankind (physically, spiritually, His written WORDs, etc.) and then viewing the timeline; He who is to be to Predestined and Sealed those that will faithfully accept Him forever or condemn those that for what ever reason will not accept him will have been determine thus Predestined.
Thus, The Book of Life...Is your name written there?
Better hope so for Hell and the Lake of Fire are two very nasty places! That is if you truly believe in the WORD of GOD.
It may seem strange but its how you are saying it, you are saying by "placing our faith" by this phrase here its saying you are doing something, and yet how can one place their faith in Christ payment considering the fact before one has ever become saved they are spiritually dead and have no faith. Yet if one says well I "placed my faith" in the redemption work of Christ..and yet again faith is a work and the Bible say's very clearly that it is not of works. So by this idea its like saying I really don't needs God's grace when I can do something. Maybe I'm not coming across clear but its just this repeated phrase I've heard from many people saying "placing our faith in Christ redemption plan."
F
finaldesire
Guest
Do you think maybe you are using the bible the wrong way, it's a spiritual book to teach you how to become spiritually fit.
Just as Love is a choice in this world so is slalation. 2Co 6:2 [FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)[/FONT]Jos 24:15 [FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.[/FONT]