Yes @oldethennew, I agree, as the quoted verse you give. I was referring to the salvation part that God set us apart for, based not on anything we could do on our own effort, but based on the “free gift” of salvation offered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Our ‘works’ play no role in our salvation. We cannot ‘earn’ our way into Heaven...
predestination vs freewill
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Yes @oldethennew, I agree, as the quoted verse you give. I was referring to the salvation part that God set us apart for, based not on anything we could do on our own effort, but based on the “free gift” of salvation offered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Our ‘works’ play no role in our salvation. We cannot ‘earn’ our way into Heaven...
I believe the difference between the "all day" & the "one hour" workers was that the first were jews & the latter gentiles. The gentiles will go in before the jews because they accept Christ under His new covenant while the jews denied Him. I hope that helps. I'm not gonna go deep into it because someone will counter it with their own "version" of it.
I don't see any distinction between the full-time and last hour workers, in terms of associating them with chosen or called ones. In the parable itself, the landlord in fact was the one who approached and led them to His vineyard to work, not the other way round. All were chosen, like what Jesus says in John 15:16:
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
@Blade, yes this is the same analogy of an incoming train on a track... My question was to understand about God's way of further intervention to people whom He already foreknew to be rejecting Christ in the end.
You don't know your Bible then, because there are no more Apostles today. There was only 12 Apostle offices.
Same for God's prophets that He called, those offices are no more today. If they were, then He would be speaking 'directly' 'in person' to prophets today like He did with the OT prophets and like how Jesus did with His Apostles after His resurrection; and they would be warning the people what God said. The only ones attempting to do that, i.e., "God told me to tell you...", are false prophets. The way prophecy is given to His people today is through the preaching of His Word.
So you might be 'called' by The LORD to believe and for His purpose, but being a chosen 'sent' one, that's a different matter. The idea of being 'sent' in the NT Greek is about the word 'apostle'.
My concern is not about attributing the blame to God if a person's ultimate decision is to reject Him & in no way I'm saying God's foreknowledgement means that He caused those decisions to happen, like I said in my previous posts, I want to understand what is God's way in approaching these people... (Will He be orchestrating events & sending people in attempt to change their ultimate decisions? But I find my question invalid when I ask this way because God will know if His intervention works or not in the end, so this is the part that has been causing tension in me) I just couldn't comprehend...
Or should I simply ignore about this part since His way is higher than ours and His thoughts are higher than us. Does that mean my question should end here?
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Thinking to know God's Own Mind is not the way of understanding Him. All we can do is understand what He gave us in His Word about these kind of things.
And if people are busy trying to use their own mind to figure out why He does something, instead of going to His Word in study and asking Him through prayer, then why should He show them anything?
Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God knows all things. God knows the choices a man will make in his lifetime. That does not mean that God will make man make specific choices. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
When Adam fell in the garden God gave man the knowledge to choose between good and evil. It is now the responsibility of man to choose between Gods righteousness and mans righteousness. God knows the decision but man must make it. God will not compel man to do right only make a way for man to correct his error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God knows all things. God knows the choices a man will make in his lifetime. That does not mean that God will make man make specific choices. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
When Adam fell in the garden God gave man the knowledge to choose between good and evil. It is now the responsibility of man to choose between Gods righteousness and mans righteousness. God knows the decision but man must make it. God will not compel man to do right only make a way for man to correct his error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
well that depends on whether you mean Apostles or apostles. Nor were there only twelve of the former. Scripture gives more than twelve of the former, and many more of the latter. YOU don't know your Scriptures.
your restriction of called and sent is unscriptural.
I have both been chosen and sent (Eph 1.4; Rom 10.15). Your limitation to 12 apostles is unscriptural.
You clearly have no conception of Christian teaching.
Well, obviously I've struck a nerve.....woohoo, did I strike one!
Firstly, we're not on the same page. When I say "minister", I don't mean the suit-behind-podium variety. I mean someone who ministers to the needs of another. You know, the no-license kind.
Now, John 6:44.
John 6:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Now how do you suppose the Father does that? Thru the Spirit, like He always does.
Mercy is NOT universal? there's actually someone out there God HASN'T shown mercy to?
GOD DOES NOT SAVE DESPITE CHOICE! BLASPHEMY! The first man was given a choice, & the last man will, too.
About what you just taught in your post.... again a lie. Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life..... not whom "you say" God "chooses" against His own word.
God's word has been forever settled in heaven. God's word cannot be broken.
You was wrong in your previous post, & you're wrong in this one, too. That's not my fault, neither my fault to tell you so. It has nothing to do with me saying it..... except I'm the one that called you out on it. Quit perverting my Father's Word & I'll stop.
I don't know whether because of the Catholic church or christian tradition, but names & titles get blown up & superspiritualized untill no one else can ever hope to attain to them, & stop believing in them even when some are still called to it.
Greek Strong's Number: 652
Greek Word: ἀπόστολος
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Pronunciation:
ap-os'-tol-osRoot: from <G649>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:407,67
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Apostle, Apostleship, Messenger
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
apostle 78
messenger 2
he that is sent 1
[Total Count: 81]
from <G649> (apostello); a delegate; specially an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ [“apostle”] (with miraculous powers) :- apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
How many of us are ambassadors of Christ? How many of us are sent by God? Aren't we all God's messengers? How many are commissioned with a ministry?
The first position I think of when I hear this word is "missionary", for they qualify with their ministry more than any other IMO.
Not saying we ALL could be apostles, but definitely some should.
Well, obviously I've struck a nerve.....woohoo, did I strike one!
Firstly, we're not on the same page. When I say "minister", I don't mean the suit-behind-podium variety. I mean someone who ministers to the needs of another. You know, the no-license kind.
Now, John 6:44.
John 6:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Now how do you suppose the Father does that? Thru the Spirit, like He always does.
Mercy is NOT universal? there's actually someone out there God HASN'T shown mercy to?
GOD DOES NOT SAVE DESPITE CHOICE! BLASPHEMY! The first man was given a choice, & the last man will, too.
About what you just taught in your post.... again a lie. Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life..... not whom "you say" God "chooses" against His own word.
God's word has been forever settled in heaven. God's word cannot be broken.
You was wrong in your previous post, & you're wrong in this one, too. That's not my fault, neither my fault to tell you so. It has nothing to do with me saying it..... except I'm the one that called you out on it. Quit perverting my Father's Word & I'll stop.
[FONT="] I have always been intrigued by this subject because it opens the door to debate like none other. If I was a lawyer, I would gladly defend either side. I have spent a great deal of time researching this subject and there are verses that could support either opinion. There are no ambiguities in the Bible; any ambiguities are man-made.
However, if I chose to defend the side representing Predestination, I would be challenged by the one that wrote the book‑- the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of Predestination does not fit in with the rest of the Gospels and to use a colloquial phrase common in the Deep South concerning Predestination, “That don’t make no sense.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]I am not sure how many times I read the bible before I realized it is not as complicated as people make it; if you know how to read it! The Holy Spirit can explain the bible to any level of intellect. The first step is to leave our intellect hat on the hat rack and allow the Holy Spirit to do the heavy lifting and at a level, we can understand. Of course, many if not most people, will not accept the simplicity of God’s word. We are all free to voice our opinion, but there is no advantage in beating someone over the head that disagree with us. After all, it is God’s job to judge our opinions because in the end, He is the ultimate judge. Even so, it is a fascinating subject to ponder. [/FONT]
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Lynn, your statement is exactly right, it is just the opposite of most of theology,
most try and put our Saviour into a box, ain't goona work...
D
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Oh brother. Yeah. You have me shaking in my boots. You invent stuff -- whatever. You repeat the invented stuff. You pretend I said it. I corrected you.Well, obviously I've struck a nerve.....woohoo, did I strike one!
Firstly, we're not on the same page. When I say "minister", I don't mean the suit-behind-podium variety. I mean someone who ministers to the needs of another. You know, the no-license kind.
Now, John 6:44.
John 6:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Now how do you suppose the Father does that? Thru the Spirit, like He always does.
Mercy is NOT universal? there's actually someone out there God HASN'T shown mercy to?
GOD DOES NOT SAVE DESPITE CHOICE! BLASPHEMY! The first man was given a choice, & the last man will, too.
About what you just taught in your post.... again a lie. Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life..... not whom "you say" God "chooses" against His own word.
God's word has been forever settled in heaven. God's word cannot be broken.
You was wrong in your previous post, & you're wrong in this one, too. That's not my fault, neither my fault to tell you so. It has nothing to do with me saying it..... except I'm the one that called you out on it. Quit perverting my Father's Word & I'll stop.
Oh, and it's summertime, so no boots. Not even shoes.
D
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Guest
Trying to study predestination on its own is much like trying to study happiness in the Declaration of Independence. It's in there. It really is part of the whole, but it's best kept as just that -- part of the whole. Try something. (And I'm not saying you have to agree with me after your done.) Read Romans for what it is -- a letter. A whole letter. Not divided into chapter and verse. A whole letter. Read it from beginning to end as if it is one thing, instead of multiple chapters with dozens of verses in each.
And then accept it like it is supposed to be -- a manifesto.
See if that helps.
(If it doesn't? Hey! It's still a great read.)
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ivon,
any Christian already has been blessed with the knowledge by the Holy Spirit what is what in the
realm of God's grace and mercy and sacrifice...
so, I am questioning your response as being either argumentative or just plain ole satan's
ignorant challenge...
That Biblical illiteracy isn't even worth responding to. You're not wanting to learn anything, you're wanting to make things the way you want.
I am totally baffled by you response to my remarks. I you were attempting to respond to them, I must once again use the colloquial phrase "that don't make no sense". Please try again.
The answer is simple, Because He knew that the only way to result in perfect human beings was to allow them to fall, and then save them at the cost of His own blood.
I am certainly glad that my God is sovereign and not dependent on the vagaries of humans.
your words are blasphemy. you will have to answer for them one day. God certainly does not take your blasphemous attitude. You clearly are unaware of what you are talking about. I leave you to Him.
All men chose to sin. All therefore face deserved judgment. But God in His mercy has chosen out some to be saved. Why He only chose some is the mystery of God. But if He had not chosen some NONE would have been saved. For all are enemies of God.