Predestination or free wiil.

[ForestGreenCook]

I think we serve under the illusion we have free will.
2 Thessalonians13[KJV]: But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Exodus 33:19[KJV] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Ecclesiastes 7 [KJV]13:Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Matthew 5:45 [KJV] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Titus 3:4[KJV] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here in this world, but it totally by God's grace, without the help of man,to save him eternally.

 

[trofimus]

I heard R.C. Sproul say something to that effect. Its just a way to make calvinism sound a bit more biblical. This way he can preach what the bible says, while maintaining the false TULIP.

Truth is that Jesus died for all, thats the good news after all. However if its not MIXED WITH FAITH, it doesn't do anything. Just like how atonement worked in the OT, day of atonement:


Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

What do we see here? The biblical model of atonement: The sacrifice is made, yet the "soul that shall not be afflicted (humble, deny self in other translations) will be cut off from the people"
So the sacrifice is of no effect, unless they are "afflicted".
How does this work today? Same way. Jesus was the sacrifice, and those who believe in His sacrifice for them, are saved. Those who dont, the sacrifice is of no use if they remain in unbelief.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Same thing again. In the wilderness, the serpent was there for ALL to look at, but only those who LOOKED were healed. Again the same thing with Jesus, Jesus is lifted up, but only those who believe have eternal life.
S-i-m-p-l-e. Even a theologian should understand that.

Christ died for all, but the atonement is limited to those who believe in Him. To the rest, it has no effect, so I am not sure why is the TULIP false....

 

[RDK]

You need to read this passage and every passage about predestination. Because it says so much more than this..

it does not say I was predestned to seek truth. where do you come up with this stuff?

The idea of predestination is from God's perspective of us. From our perspective, we are making our own decisions. The mistake that we make is that any decision we make could alter what God has planned for you to do before you did it. This does not make us puppets, it just means that each of us has an exclusive and unique place in God's kingdom and each of us is experiencing a special walk with Him which is unlike any one else. We will make our choices which we need to do even though each one of them are foreknown. For our sake, we are only given glimpses of our futures by prophesy or spiritual insight. This means that we can know that everything is under control, and that even evil is controlled and limited. That way we know that there is an escape provided for the trials when God's time is right. We trust that He will take care of us and provide for us the things that we need before we even know what to pray for. I hope that some of you have experienced this. Some will call it coincidence when these things happen, I call them miracles. Once you see these things, you won't have to fear what is coming upon us. You will trust walking hand in hand. He says He will never leave us or forsake us.

My thoughts exactly. Allowing Scripture to speak for itself. When did God know you? Before or after salvation?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Jer.1-5 ,God knew you before you were born.

 

[trofimus]

Wouldn't it depend on your understanding of "predestination"?

For instance, Some believe, as I do, that God already knows who will offer themselves a living sacrifice to Him because God has seen the future, then that person is "Predestined" for atonement because God already knows the choices he will make, but we don't. This person would more likely "take Heed" regarding his choices and beliefs and would "work" to endure until the end of their life as the Christ taught.

But some folks believe God "picks winners and losers" based on invisible guidelines that only He knows. These people believe God has "picked" them based on nothing a person does, or choices a person makes. God just picks some and rejects some and no one knows how or why.

These folks are more secure in their religion because they have been convinced that they are already saved, as was Eve. No reason to "take Heed" or "beware" if you are already immortal, already saved, already guaranteed at spot in the kingdom regardless of religious traditions or lifestyles.

If a person doesn't make it, as those "Christians" in Matt. 7, they just say "Well they weren't saved to begin with".

So I would say, that given God is no respecter of persons, atonement is unlimited in it's "Ability" to save anyone who would turn to God, regardless of sins committed, religious traditions lived in, etc., as long as they truly repented of these things.

Anyone who would give God back their free will and tell Him, "I can't handle this power", please guide my steps with "Your Word", would be "predestined" for atonement. As it was written beforehand;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I believe that God is not only someone who sees the future, but also the creator of everything what exists. So foreseeing and predestination are two sides of the same coin.

I believe not only in predestination, but also in predetermination.

 

[Studyman]

In regards to your comments about God's foreknowledge you best read Ps 53:2-3. which would make it necessary for God to choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and have his Son to cleanse them from their sins. The natural man, described in 1 Cor 2:14, will never turn to a spiritual God because he cannot discern spiritual things.

So then all the scriptures which say that the Christ Loved men when we were still enemies of God are what? Void? And Romans 11? Is that Void when Paul says the Jews can be grafted in again if they do this or that?

What are you preaching here, that some men are not born "Natural" and some men are depending on some unknown variable. Doesn't the Bible say we are all "Natural man" until we turn to God and "change our mind"?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So then all the scriptures which say that the Christ Loved men when we were still enemies of God are what? Void? And Romans 11? Is that Void when Paul says the Jews can be grafted in again if they do this or that?

What are you preaching here, that some men are not born "Natural" and some men are depending on some unknown variable. Doesn't the Bible say we are all "Natural man" until we turn to God and "change our mind"?

The bible says that we are all born into this world by natural birth and are dead in sins due to Adam's fall. We remain in that natural state of depravity, up to and until God regenerates us (Eph 2:5) and gives us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, faith is a fruit of. Without having the Spirit, we have no spiritual faith. We, as natural men, will not turn to a spiritual God, or change our minds about spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14).

 

[Hevosmies]

Christ died for all, but the atonement is limited to those who believe in Him. To the rest, it has no effect, so I am not sure why is the TULIP false....

Because TULIP states "L" LIMITED atonement.
TULIP states Christ didnt die for all! Only to the elect. Thats the problem.

 

[Hevosmies]

There is a deliverance (salvation) when a child of God "COMES UNTO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" The thing that trips up most of God's children from understanding and harmonizing the scriptures is because they do not understand that Strong's meaning of the word "SALVATION" is "a deliverance". We are delivered eternally and we are delivered many times as we live here on earth. Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to a deliverance here on earth. For instance, can you see two different salvations in the following scriptures? You are SAVED by grace, and that not of yourselves. and SAVE yourselves from this untoward generation. In order to be understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught, all of the scriptures must harmonize, 1 Ti 2:14 - All elect men. Heb 2:9 - every man that God gave his Son. 1 Jh 2:2 - World of the elect. Joh 1:9 - every elect man. I have attempted to address all the scriptures you have given me. Would you have the respect to address these? 1 Cor 2:14, Romans 9:11-13, Ps 73:5, John 6:39, for just a few.

Uhh.. I could answer the scriptures you psoted but uhh... you just re-wrote the verses....
you changed every man to "everyman that God gave his Son". you changed world to world of the elect. you changed every man to every ELECT man.

you are adding to scripture to fit your doctrine, Cant you see that? Read back what you posted, you added the word elect to all the "every" and "all" and "world" passages.
Wow!

 

[trofimus]

Because TULIP states "L" LIMITED atonement.
TULIP states Christ didnt die for all! Only to the elect. Thats the problem.

Depends on the point of view. If we know that only the church will be saved, then we can say He died for His church. Yes, technically, He died for all humanity, but He knew His death will save the church.

I think you are too technical, here. It requires 2 sentences of explanation and the "L" point is not false at all.

 

[RDK]

Yes you do You can twist it all you want, I showed ALL of the passages on predestination. You want to focus on one word. Good luck wiht that my friend.

If I am not also in context. The passage has NO MEANING.

I think that a breakdown of events might just answer this seemingly complex question. Does God know the future. I know that Peter didn't want to believe what Jesus said to him about his three time denial. Not only did Jesus know what Peter would do, He knew what the crowds would say and do in advance also. Let's not forget the rooster which had to crow at just the completion of the denial. All of the events were completed by all involved in the time with which they completed. Did Jesus just make this happen, or is there a a specific planned future for all of us. We just get shook up because we don't know how He did it.
If God knows minute by minute what is going to happen, He is not choosing possibilities but certainties about all of our actions in the future. Look at the prophesies about the devil. That devil is supposed to follow the scriptures predictions about his own work in very specific detail. Look at the prophesies about what Jesus would have to go through in psalms , by people who were guided by the devil to do what they would do two thousand years prior. Even the devil is trying to prove God's foreknowledge to be true.

 

[RDK]

The bible was not written to The unregenerate natural man, because he cannot discern spiritual things. It was written to those who are already his children as instructions on how God wants them to live their lives here on earth and that is why we have hundreds of passages about obedience. Scriptures that use the words, repent, confess, believe, accept etc. are instructions to God's disobedient children. There are scriptures telling God's children how that they were saved, but there are no scriptures telling how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, what he must do to save himself eternally. Where most of God's children get side tracked is their lack of knowledge that salvation, according to Strong's meaning is "a deliverance". When a disobedient child of God repents of a sin that they commit and God forgives them, they have experienced a salvat.

I believe that scripture is definitely targeted to those who don't know what is right. It does not make a bit of difference what you heritage is. The message is the same for all since we all need correction. Christ wants to teach us how to love people, that's all. We get tangled in all of the definitions, but it is really that simple. Love each other, do not kill each other. Simple right?

 

[Lillywolf]

I think what gets misconstrued is the differences in import of the terms, limited atonement and unlimited atonement.
Atonement= “satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.”
Unlimited atonement means everyone will be saved regardless of whether they believe.
Limited atonement means those who believe are God's elect.

Question: "Is the atonement of Christ unlimited?"

 

[Hevosmies]

I think what gets misconstrued is the differences in import of the terms, limited atonement and unlimited atonement.
Atonement= “satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.”
Unlimited atonement means everyone will be saved regardless of whether they believe.
Limited atonement means those who believe are God's elect.

Question: "Is the atonement of Christ unlimited?"

unlimited atonement does not mean everyone will be saved regardless of belief! That is what the calvinist states.
What it really means is, is that as the BIBLE states, Christ died for ALL. Therefore the atonement is UNLIMITED, reaches all humans.

Just because atonement is made, it does not mean that said individual is AUTOMATICALLY saved, as I provided proof in my post earlier, here it is again:

Truth is that Jesus died for all, thats the good news after all. However if its not MIXED WITH FAITH, it doesn't do anything. Just like how atonement worked in the OT, day of atonement:


Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

What do we see here? The biblical model of atonement: The sacrifice is made, yet the "soul that shall not be afflicted (humble, deny self in other translations) will be cut off from the people"
So the sacrifice is of no effect, unless they are "afflicted".
How does this work today? Same way. Jesus was the sacrifice, and those who believe in His sacrifice for them, are saved. Those who dont, the sacrifice is of no use if they remain in unbelief.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Same thing again. In the wilderness, the serpent was there for ALL to look at, but only those who LOOKED were healed. Again the same thing with Jesus, Jesus is lifted up, but only those who believe have eternal life.
S-i-m-p-l-e. Even a theologian should understand that.

 

[posthuman]

What if I say that Christ´s death is a payment sufficient to save all, but it will have the effect only in those who are predestined, therefore the atonement is unlimited in its ability, but limited in its effect.

I heard R.C. Sproul say something to that effect. Its just a way to make calvinism sound a bit more biblical. This way he can preach what the bible says, while maintaining the false TULIP.

((quoting from Wikipedia))


Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. These articles asserted that

1. Salvation (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the graciously-enabled faith (or unbelief) of man;
2. The Atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer ..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ;
3. "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
4. 
   
5. . . .
6. . . .

 

[posthuman]

Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. These articles asserted that

1. Salvation (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the graciously-enabled faith (or unbelief) of man;
2. The Atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer ..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ;
3. "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
4. 
   
5. . . .
6. . . .

put tenets (1) and (3) of classical Arminianism together and what does it say about predestination?

 

[trofimus]

The biblical model of atonement: The sacrifice is made, yet the "soul that shall not be afflicted (humble, deny self in other translations) will be cut off from the people"

I see no difference between what you say and what calvinism says. If you believe that the atonement is made generally for all humanity, but some people are cut off from that atonement, then you end up with the final atonement to be limited, anyway.

If we say that Christ died for the church and some people are cut off from the church or that Christ died for his sheep and some people will be cut off from those sheep.... its still the limited atonement, limited to church, to his sheep, to his people, to his elect, to spiritual Israel and if any other synonym can be used, its still the same thing.

 

[Hevosmies]

put tenets (1) and (3) of classical Arminianism together and what does it say about predestination?

Dont know. Im not a fan of arminianism either.

 

[Hevosmies]

I see no difference between what you say and what calvinism says. If you believe that the atonement is made generally for all humanity, but some people are cut off from that atonement, then you end up with the final atonement to be limited, anyway.

I see a big difference. I can spot a calvinist from the way they preach the gospel.
You can even find out if someone is a calvinist without knowing their name, if they say something like "Christ died for all those who put their faith in him and repent" that is the calvinist way of preaching the gospel. You can spot it easily once you learn the key words. You will also find they never say Christ died for YOU personally, because they cannot say that and be faithful to their pet-doctrines. Thats another way to catch one. They instead say "Christ died for His people" often times.

 

[trofimus]

I see a big difference. I can spot a calvinist from the way they preach the gospel.
You can even find out if someone is a calvinist without knowing their name, if they say something like "Christ died for all those who put their faith in him and repent" that is the calvinist way of preaching the gospel. You can spot it easily once you learn the key words. You will also find they never say Christ died for YOU personally, because they cannot say that and be faithful to their pet-doctrines. Thats another way to catch one. They instead say "Christ died for His people" often times.

I do not know how well can you spot a Calvinist or what style of preaching they use, but we were talking about the "L" in the TULIP and the "L" is, logically, what you believe, too. You are just using more words for it.

BTW, I never read "Christ died for you, personally" in the Bible, but "Christ died for His people". So what is wrong when somebody uses it in gospel preaching?

 

[posthuman]

If you believe that the atonement is made generally for all humanity, but some people are cut off from that atonement, then you end up with the final atonement to be limited, anyway.

it seems to me that the only way His atonement isn't functionally limited is universal salvation . . ?