Predestination is misunderstood...

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Genez said:
Go here and tell them what you just told me...

Its a Calvinist forum.
https://christcentered.community.forum/
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As I showed you already directly from what Jean Calvin actually wrote with evidence, was that every living person is divinely sown a seed from God, and that maybe 1 in 100 will flourish..


The very people Jean Calvin went to war against reformed his doctrine with tulip, the Roman catholics



Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner, Loraine (1901-1990) a Roman Catholic

a Roman Catholic argues jean Calvin had combined free will with grace. Well Calvin does not believe in free will

Reformed doctrine by Roman catholics
https://ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest/predest.vii.ii.html?queryID=35330708&resultID=111914

The reformed doctrine of Jean calvin predestination by Roman Catholics also in tulip.

Basically tulip has been wrote to get one over on Calvinist.



Chapter XXVIII
Calvinism in History
1. Before the Reformation. 2. The Reformation. 3. Calvinism in England. 4. Calvinism in Scotland. 5. Calvinism in France. 6. Calvinism in Holland. 7. Calvinism in America. 8. Calvinism and Representative Government. 9. Calvinism and Education. 10. John Calvin. 11. Conclusion.
1. BEFORE THE REFORMATION
It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination and perhaps also that of God's absolute Foreknowledge. They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free will.


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Jimbone said:
Yep, went to the alter deceived, yet was following all the instructions I was given by the church leadership to a "T", and then declared saved. Hmmm, Maybe this is my point. Why do you think I share this? To make myself look good? I also wasn't even considering God or Jesus when He actually saved me. So if you think going to the alter unknowingly insincere, then you must real loath me for not even calling His name when He did save me, maybe I'm a 3rd class Christian. Like I said I thought I was saved, I thought I was a Christian, yet when the trial hit the false idea I had of reality as a whole was wrong, and my fake Jesus didn't help. Besides asking about my false conversion and my flaws in approaching Jesus before I knew Him, why not tell me what you think about that next day I was "road to Damascus" converted? Habits, priorities, relationships and EVERYTHING changed overnight, and His power has kept me these last nearly 11 years just as hungry and amazed the deeper He pulls me.

Your very question highlights the problem with a man centered salvation. You asked "So you went to the alter without feeling the conviction of God?", seemingly with arrogance and judgement, but I could be reading that into it admittedly, as if you KNEW before you were born again exactly how this all worked. I wasn't as "good" as you were then. I'm a second class Christian I guess. See the problem with this? No God saved me EXACTLY how He meant to, just as He did everyone He draws to Himself. He gets the glory for it ALL, I don't get any credit for any of it, even if He did bless me with going up to the alter call and doing it all "church house proper", I don't get some kind of credit/merit points for making the right choice. No He showed me very clearly that I had NOTHING at all to do with my salvation, and I will always testify this.
One more thing, if I did read any condescension or arrogance into your short comment that wasn't intended then I apologize. I was framing the response with the whole conversation in mind, I'm not trying to direct anything directly towards you outside of my opinion on the motivation and tone of the comment, but again if I was wrong in my assessment then I apologize.
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I asked because I gave an altar call one time and young man, along with others, came up and the Elders and myself prayed with this man for almost 45 minutes and I told everyone to stop. I asked the man, why are you really up here? He said his Mom told him if he didn't go to the altar and get saved she was kicking him out of the house. He had been in a lot of trouble and his Mom clearly had enough. I had to explain to the Mom until he's truly convicted of God he won't ever be saved.

So I wondered if maybe similar conditions is what happened in your own situation.
 
7th Moon's comment ....
7thMoon said:
A Rabbi has told me the tree of gnosis of good and evil was actually the tree of life. Depending on somethings, it was probably a tree of lifegiving, but it is meant to prevent death. That is the consequences for mankind not being able to keep his eyes shut. The punishment is harsh, but having no sight may have been worse.
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Paul's response ...
PaulThomson said:
That would mean the "and" in Gen. 2:9 could be translated as "even".

i.e. that "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could be "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
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Look at what we have to deal with... please excuse the generic translation..


The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
from it you will certainly die.”


As Paul has shown us.... If Adam had been already eating from the Tree of Life?"

And, that God had to remove the Tree of Life so that Adam could not continue living forever in his fallen state?

And, if it were possible that the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge are one and the same tree?


That can't work.

For why would the serpent tempt the woman to eat from a tree that she had already been eating from?

And, why would God have forbidden eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil if it were also the Tree of Life?
For according to Paul's exegesis, Adam had already been eating from the Tree of Life.

Conclusion?

That rabbi 7th Moon had contact with?

Would have caused me to lose sleep at night if I were attending bible classes at his "sinner-gogue."


back on cruise control.......
 
Genez said:
7th Moon's comment ....


Paul's response ...


Look at what we have to deal with... please excuse the generic translation..


The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
from it you will certainly die.”


As Paul has shown us.... If Adam had been already eating from the Tree of Life?"

And, that God had to remove the Tree of Life so that Adam could not continue living forever in his fallen state?

And, if it were possible that the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge are one and the same tree?


That can't work.

For why would the serpent tempt the woman to eat from a tree that she had already been eating from?

And, why would God have forbidden eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil if it were also the Tree of Life?
For according to Paul's exegesis, Adam had already been eating from the Tree of Life.

Conclusion?

That rabbi 7th Moon had contact with?

Would have caused me to lose sleep at night if I were attending bible classes at his "sinner-gogue."


back on cruise control.......
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He was free to eat from any other tree in the garden. because if he had of ate from the tree of of life it would have made no difference as he was living forever spiritualy alive to God anyways before the fall.

Where as after the fall he was still living spiritualy alive to God, as Gods life was still in him, but when he ate from the tree of knowledge. God had to block the tree of life to prevent Adam living forever under his death



Yes say Thankyou to God ,.and give me good medal


Au revoir 😊
 
Genez said:
And, if it were possible that the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge are one and the same tree?

That can't work.

For why would the serpent tempt the woman to eat from a tree that she had already been eating from?
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Another reason it can't work is if the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the tree of life, then eating from it would not have resulted in death.

However, God told Adam But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying you shall die]. (Gen 2:17)

and in Genesis 3:22, after the process of death had already begun, God said if they would have eaten of the tree of life they would live forever.
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reneweddaybyday said:
Another reason it can't work is if the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the tree of life, then eating from it would not have resulted in death.

However, God told Adam But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying you shall die]. (Gen 2:17)

and in Genesis 3:22, after the process of death had already begun, God said if they would have eaten of the tree of life they would live forever.
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And "the knowledge of good and evil" is us usurping this from God, it's pretending we know what's right and wrong. Exactly how we are born and the biggest message the world throws at us to deceive us from the day we are born.

Follow your heart right? Follow the heart that is "21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (Mark 7: 21-23)

That heart?
Also they did die the very day they ate as well, they were disconnected from God and their spirits died that day. Of course they also stared death physically that day as well, but the real death "that day" was the death of the spirit of mankind. That can only be restored through Jesus Christ our God and King forever!!!
 
What one needs to realise is, that the life of Jesus that already lives in all men, in a fallen state, accepts the new seed. 😊


One must realise this


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Jimbone said:
And "the knowledge of good and evil" is us usurping this from God, it's pretending we know what's right and wrong. Exactly how we are born and the biggest message the world throws at us to deceive us from the day we are born.
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right ... and the deception doesn't stop when a person turns from darkness to light and is born again. it is so important for the believer to read Scripture ... spend time in prayer and communion with God ... grow in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We read in the gospels about when Jesus went aside to pray ... just Him and Father. I figure if anyone did not need to pray, it would have been Jesus, but He would go off by Himself to have that alone time with the Father.

And how about that record when Jesus was in the synagogue and they brought the scroll of Isaiah to Him and He found the place where it was written (Luke 4:16-17) ... Jesus knew the Scripture – He knew exactly where it was written. In our day and time we have book, chapter, verse all laid out. Back then, it was one long scroll ... no chapter or verses.

nowadays it's remove God's Word and prayer from the public square and man do folks get upset when we pray in the name of Jesus ... now it's talk about any god you want to and/or pray in the name of any god but don't you dare mention our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jimbone said:
Also they did die the very day they ate as well, they were disconnected from God and their spirits died that day. Of course they also stared death physically that day as well, but the real death "that day" was the death of the spirit of mankind. That can only be restored through Jesus Christ our God and King forever!!!
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yep ... the riches of the glory of the mystery ... Christ in you the hope of glory!!! :cool:
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