Predestination is misunderstood...

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PaulThomson said:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on the basis of which (eph' hOi) all sinned."

Heb. 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh nd blood, He also likewise took part in the same, that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
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This doesn't say they sinned because they feared death. They feared death not because of death itself, but the wrath of God to come upon them. This is the essence of Ephesians 2:1-3. They are dead, being dominated, and doomed. Verse 4...But God...This is what Jesus came to change.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
Did anyone curse the law before Adam and eve died @Cameron143

Was it life that cursed the law or death

Does it actually say the law is a curse or death

Is makes reference the law was given before man died.

The curse of the law is referenced as death not the law

As in the two laws God gave Adam and eve before the fall.

Was man under a curse when theese two laws where given

1 don't eat from the tree

2 man shall not live alone.

You have to say the curse of the law is death.

Meaning death curses the law
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The law was never cursed. It contains curses that those under the law are subject to.
 
Genez said:
This might help.
I pray it does like it helped me to understand what we are dealing with.

Interesting point I learned from my pastor...

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. Romans 5:12​
​

The English translation leaves us wondering. The Greek does not.

The Greek has a definite meaning.
It is saying that when Adam sinned? We all sinned in that one point in time.

Adam sealed our fate when he sinned..
His fallen nature was passed down to the woman by means of his sperm.
For? In Adam all die.


What about the woman's ovum? The ovum does not transfer the fallen nature.
That is why Jesus had to have no human father.

That is why Genesis 3:15 is specific in its wording that the Messiah would come by means of the "seed of the man."
Not the man's seed.

Jesus could have no human father for that reason. The man's sperm would pass down the sin nature.


grace and peace ............
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Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

Look at the use of epi + hEi (epi + dative) in Luke 11:22

But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he takes from him all his armor upon which (eph hEi, epi + dative) he trusted , and divideth his spoils.

Eph' hEi introduces the consequence of the "which/hEi". The consequence of the strongman's armor was that he trusted in it. The basis upon which he had confidence to protect his goods was his armor.; not the basis upon which he had armor was that he was confident. The reason he had confidence was his armor; not the reason he had armor was that he was confident.

Now compare Romans 5:12

Wherefore as by one man, sin entered the world, and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, upon which (eph' hOi, Hoi + dative) all sinned.

Eph hOi introduces the consequence of the referent of the "which/ hOi" The consequence of death coming to all through Adam's sin was that all [who sinned] sinned. The basis upon which all sinned was that death came upon all because of Adam's sin; not the basis upon which death came upon all because of Adam's sin was that all sinned. The reason all sinned was that death came upon all because of Adam's sin; not the reason death came upon all through Adam's sin was that all sinned.

This is confirmed by Heb. 2:15 ...He likewise also took part in the same [flesh and Blood] that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
 
sawdust said:
Murder is possible because sin is possible. We are not talking of the sin of others killing babies (like in abortion) we are discussing how babies die without anyone committing sin against them.
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The devil goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Satan is a murderer. Satan kills, steals and destroys. Who kills babies who die without being murdered by humans? Devils. Or they are poisoned by their environment, or killed by animals.

Babies die because Adam's sin subjected all of nature, including his descendants to mortality. All creation groans and is on tip toes waiting to be freed from mortality. There is no verse that says Adam's sin and guilt of Adam is passed down to Adam's descendants. That is your rationalisation for why babies die. But it is not the reason scripture gives for why babies die.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
does this answer the question, Is the law death or is it death curses the law.

I mean there are requirements when your saved surely, would that law be a curse to
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Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our ​
competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant​
—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with ​
glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, ​
transitory though it was.." 2 Corinthians 3:5-7​
​


The letter (law) kills.....
The Spirit gives life.

In other words?

The Law only tells us what jerks and losers were are.
Its knocks us down and kills us by showing us how we are not entitled to live with God.

In contrast...

The Spirit gives us spiritual truths the build us up and strengthens us in the Lord.

grace and peace ..........
 
PaulThomson said:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

Look at the use of epi + hEi (epi + dative) in Luke 11:22

But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he takes from him all his armor upon which (eph hEi, epi + dative) he trusted , and divideth his spoils.

Eph' hEi introduces the consequence of the "which/hEi". The consequence of the strongman's armor was that he trusted in it. The basis upon which he had confidence to protect his goods was his armor.; not the basis upon which he had armor was that he was confident. The reason he had confidence was his armor; not the reason he had armor was that he was confident.

Now compare Romans 5:12

Wherefore as by one man, sin entered the world, and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, upon which (eph' hOi, Hoi + dative) all sinned.

Eph hOi introduces the consequence of the referent of the "which/ hOi" The consequence of death coming to all through Adam's sin was that all [who sinned] sinned. The basis upon which all sinned was that death came upon all because of Adam's sin; not the basis upon which death came upon all because of Adam's sin was that all sinned. The reason all sinned was that death came upon all because of Adam's sin; not the reason death came upon all through Adam's sin was that all sinned.

This is confirmed by Heb. 2:15 ...He likewise also took part in the same [flesh and Blood] that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
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What did you just say to us?
 
Cameron143 said:
The law itself reveals what righteousness engenders. When it is followed, it brings life; when not followed, it brings death.
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The Law could not cause righteousness.

The law could only reveal how unrighteous we were by demanding we must be righteous to fulfill it.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
so now you agree this was a law.

When was there no law
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That law was for Adam and Eve alone in the garden. No one can break that law since they were driven from the garden. The next time laws are given are through Moses. Thus, no law from Adam to Moses.
 
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