Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

Romans 1 is a letter addressed to church leaders on how instruct people, nothing more buddy.

A person does not become saved by reading it.

It's also Paul expressing His faith.

And his faith is not everyone who reads it.

The seed still has to accept the dirt in people hearts. And is given to all hearts

First the seed is given, ( the word directly to the heart), a seed of light.

Then if they listen to the seed it grows.

But as we see they don't all listen, and keep following the devil, and the seed is removed from the heart buddy.

And as we see the seed only grows if the seed grows patience in the heart.

So how long is it before the seed is turned into salvation

I'm sorry, but your response here to what I said makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The topic at hand was how can an unregenerate person hear God. Romans 1 explains how that process can begin.

You have a nice day mate.

 

[Cameron143]

there is no good soil

None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

Hence, the heart is circumcised to create good soil in the heart.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Hence, the heart is circumcised to create good soil in the heart.

. That's a fair suggestion buddy

Just one question buddy when the seed enters the heart, and the scripture says it enters all hearts.

How is this not a type of circumcision.

The parable says some listen to the seed for a while before it's removed.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I'm loaded with trump's buddy.

It's say here nobody knows how the seed grows.

And it also says the seed grows.

Nothing about it being dependant on the dirt bro


Mark 4:26-29
“And He said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Nothing about it being dependant on the dirt bro

In this Parable no. But this is an entirely different parable.

The Parable of the Growing Seed and the Parable of the Sower complement one another by presenting different aspects of the Kingdom of God and how it interacts with the world and individuals. Each parable focuses on different elements of the process by which the Kingdom of God grows and expands.

The Parable of the Sower (found in Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:4-15) emphasizes the reception of the word of God by different types of people, represented by various types of soil. The focus here is on how individuals respond to the gospel message and the factors that contribute to spiritual growth or failure. This parable teaches about the importance of the condition of one's heart in receiving the gospel and producing a fruitful life.
The Parable of the Growing Seed (Mark 4:26-29), on the other hand, emphasizes the mysterious and autonomous growth of the Kingdom of God once the seed (the word of God or the message of the Kingdom) has already been planted. It highlights the process by which God's kingdom grows in ways that are beyond human understanding and control. The man who plants the seed does not know how it grows; it does so independently of human effort, underscoring the divine power and sovereignty in the growth of God's Kingdom.

while the Parable of the Growing Seed emphasizes God's sovereignty in the growth of His Kingdom, it should not be interpreted in isolation to suggest that the condition of the soil (the human heart) is unimportant in the broader scriptural context. The totality of Jesus' teachings, including both parables, affirms that both God's sovereign work and the receptivity of human hearts are essential elements in the spiritual growth and effectiveness of the Kingdom of God.

Rather than contradicting each other, these parables offer a more complete understanding of the dynamics of the Kingdom of God. The Parable of the Sower teaches about human responsibility and the need for a receptive heart, while the Parable of the Growing Seed illustrates the sovereignty of God in bringing about the growth of His Kingdom. Together, they affirm both our role in responding to God's word with faith and openness and God's ultimate control over the growth and fulfillment of His Kingdom. Each parable provides a unique perspective that enriches the overall biblical teaching about the nature of God's work in the world and in individual lives.

 

[Cameron143]

. That's a fair suggestion buddy

Just one question buddy when the seed enters the heart, and the scripture says it enters all hearts.

How is this not a type of circumcision.

The parable says some listen to the seed for a while before it's removed.

Every parable isn't teaching every truth. It lists 4 different possibilities for the reception of the gospel. Jesus isn't concerned to tell every possible response to the gospel, but enough to make His point. The first case is clearly not receptive. The next 2 examples show what seems like genuine salvation, but is not and they fall away. But the last represents genuine salvation. The reason we know this is because there is fruit. In this case, a harvest.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Every parable isn't teaching every truth. It lists 4 different possibilities for the reception of the gospel. Jesus isn't concerned to tell every possible response to the gospel, but enough to make His point. The first case is clearly not receptive. The next 2 examples show what seems like genuine salvation, but is not and they fall away. But the last represents genuine salvation. The reason we know this is because there is fruit. In this case, a harvest.

In this Parable no. But this is an entirely different parable.

The Parable of the Growing Seed and the Parable of the Sower complement one another by presenting different aspects of the Kingdom of God and how it interacts with the world and individuals. Each parable focuses on different elements of the process by which the Kingdom of God grows and expands.

The Parable of the Sower (found in Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:4-15) emphasizes the reception of the word of God by different types of people, represented by various types of soil. The focus here is on how individuals respond to the gospel message and the factors that contribute to spiritual growth or failure. This parable teaches about the importance of the condition of one's heart in receiving the gospel and producing a fruitful life.
The Parable of the Growing Seed (Mark 4:26-29), on the other hand, emphasizes the mysterious and autonomous growth of the Kingdom of God once the seed (the word of God or the message of the Kingdom) has already been planted. It highlights the process by which God's kingdom grows in ways that are beyond human understanding and control. The man who plants the seed does not know how it grows; it does so independently of human effort, underscoring the divine power and sovereignty in the growth of God's Kingdom.

while the Parable of the Growing Seed emphasizes God's sovereignty in the growth of His Kingdom, it should not be interpreted in isolation to suggest that the condition of the soil (the human heart) is unimportant in the broader scriptural context. The totality of Jesus' teachings, including both parables, affirms that both God's sovereign work and the receptivity of human hearts are essential elements in the spiritual growth and effectiveness of the Kingdom of God.

Rather than contradicting each other, these parables offer a more complete understanding of the dynamics of the Kingdom of God. The Parable of the Sower teaches about human responsibility and the need for a receptive heart, while the Parable of the Growing Seed illustrates the sovereignty of God in bringing about the growth of His Kingdom. Together, they affirm both our role in responding to God's word with faith and openness and God's ultimate control over the growth and fulfillment of His Kingdom. Each parable provides a unique perspective that enriches the overall biblical teaching about the nature of God's work in the world and in individual lives.

This is a good discussion,



I'm enjoying this, as we really do need to search our hearts.

According to the scripture and the parable of the seed in Luke , when you look you can see one parable in another.

So for instance we see in the parable of Luke, the seed is sown.

But then the seed is removed.

Now in another parable, we see the seed is sown into the perishable body.

And we know it is sown in dishonor.

It is sown in weakness.

And it is sown in A natural body.

So going back to Luke, the seed gave 3 separate accounts of where the seed was removed.

Tell me how is that soil different to any of what's just been said above.

 

[Cameron143]

This is a good discussion,



I'm enjoying this, as we really do need to search our hearts.

According to the scripture and the parable of the seed in Luke , when you look you can see one parable in another.

So for instance we see in the parable of Luke, the seed is sown.

But then the seed is removed.

Now in another parable, we see the seed is sown into the perishable body.

And we know it is sown in dishonor.

It is sown in weakness.

And it is sown in A natural body.

So going back to Luke, the seed gave 3 separate accounts of where the seed was removed.

Tell me how is that soil different to any of what's just been said above.

The first 3 soils represents the different possibilities within fallen man. The last is a picture of a heart that has been changed.

 

[tylerbones1313]

This is a good discussion,



I'm enjoying this, as we really do need to search our hearts.

According to the scripture and the parable of the seed in Luke , when you look you can see one parable in another.

So for instance we see in the parable of Luke, the seed is sown.

But then the seed is removed.

Now in another parable, we see the seed is sown into the perishable body.

And we know it is sown in dishonor.

It is sown in weakness.

And it is sown in A natural body.

So going back to Luke, the seed gave 3 separate accounts of where the seed was removed.

Tell me how is that soil different to any of what's just been said above.

please be more specific in the question you asking please.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The first 3 soils represents the different possibilities within fallen man. The last is a picture of a heart that has been changed.

changed by whom.

We have to go back to beginning, we where discussing that faith comes by hearing the word.

But in the parable of Luke 3 account of a seed sown in the heart, was hearing the word, all in the natural man.

But no part of that natural man listened.

We where also discussing how a natural man should not be seen be seen as somebody who can not believe for himself, or as you put it being stripped of all depravity.

But there never is anything in the natural man according to Luke.

And he only hears because the seed is placed in his heart.

So I ask how can you grow faith by hearing for your self.

We know scripture says faith comes by hearing, but who is making you hear.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

please be more specific in the question you asking please.

see above

 

[Lafftur]

Magenta, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand the scriptures to teach that God gave mankind the freedom to choose the way he wants to live his live here on earth and all mankind choose not to seek him (Psalms 53:1-3)

Don't we become a slave to God after we are born spiritually?

No, absolutely NOT! A slave is no better than a robot.

How can God have a “relationship” with a slave or robot? They are “controlled.”

God wants us to FREELY know Him and love Him.

 

[Lafftur]

A slave is in bondage, controlled.

A robot is preprogrammed, controlled.

God created us with free will so we can CHOOSE, decide, make a CHOICE because LOVE MUST HAVE A CHOICE.

How can God command us to love Him and NOT give us a CHOICE?!

 

[Lafftur]

By choosing God, we enter into a COVENANT… till death us do part… but, in Christ we live forever!!! The Covenant NEVER ends….. we imprison ourselves to Christ but, God has also imprisoned Himself to us for all eternity….

God has given us all things when He gave Himself to us… how can we reject such a LOVE?!!!!!!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm sorry, but your response here to what I said makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The topic at hand was how can an unregenerate person hear God. Romans 1 explains how that process can begin.

You have a nice day mate.

This is not a question buddy it a statement.

You can't make a statement out of a question.

Surly you know the difference right

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

By choosing God, we enter into a COVENANT… till death us do part… but, in Christ we live forever!!! The Covenant NEVER ends….. we imprison ourselves to Christ but, God has also imprisoned Himself to us for all eternity….

God has given us all things when He gave Himself to us… how can we reject such a LOVE?!!!!!!

a dead person can't choose anything, as his will has to be transformed first.

 

[Lafftur]

a dead person can't choose anything, as his will has to be transformed first.

Doesn’t God raise the Dead? Perhaps the Dead CAN hear God’s Voice…

ALL have a God given choice.

 

[tylerbones1313]

changed by whom.

We have to go back to beginning, we where discussing that faith comes by hearing the word.

But in the parable of Luke 3 account of a seed sown in the heart, was hearing the word, all in the natural man.

We know scripture says faith comes by hearing, but who is making you hear.

Hearing comes by the Word of God.

The profound truth that "faith comes by hearing" underscores a divine harmony where the grace of God intersects with human openness. It is God Himself, through the work of the Holy Spirit, who opens our ears and softens our hearts, enabling us to truly "hear" the transformative message of the gospel. While human messengers—pastors, teachers, loved ones—may speak the words, it is ultimately the Spirit of God who makes us receptive, turning mere sound waves into the living word that quickens our spirits and cultivates faith within us. This realization invites humility, recognizing that our coming to faith is not merely the result of our own searching or intellect but a gracious act of God drawing us to Himself. It reminds us that every moment of spiritual insight or deepening faith is a gift, an encounter with the divine made possible not by human effort but by the loving initiative of God who speaks into the depths of our beings.

 

[sawdust]

This is not a question buddy it a statement.

You can't make a statement out of a question.

Surly you know the difference right

What are you talking about?

 

[PaulThomson]

But it is God bestowing the favor and salvation is his work, not ours. Read the unconditional, unilateral NC promises in Jer 31 and Ezek 36.

And, no, we're all saved by being brought back from the dead and raised from our spiritual tombs so that we can believe. The dead have zero spiritual ability to please God, since everyone us prior to our conversion were sworn enemies of God. Unregenerated hearts that are desperately wicked and deceitful above all else cannot please God. It's impossible!

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

The above passage actually teaches the fundamentally important Law of Logic known as the Law of Identity! This law says no living entity can change its nature/essence. A is A and can never be B! Not even God can change his nature! But now we're supposed to believe we can change our sinful nature and come to faith all by ourselves, and then as consequence God saves us for this mighty work we did by ourselves? And we change our sin nature to become what specifically: Good, righteous and/holy?

You said: "And, no, we're all saved by being brought back from the dead raised from our spiritual tombs so that we can believe. The dead have zero spiritual ability to please God, since everyone us prior to our conversion were sworn enemies of God. Unregenerated hearts that are desperately wicked and deceitful above all else cannot please God. It's impossible!"

Where did you get this definition of "saved" from in scripture? Do you have a scripture that says that this is what being saved means or is limited to?

Where in scripture are you getting your definition of dead from? Could it perhaps be a figure of speech for sentenced to death?

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

The above passage actually teaches the fundamentally important Law of Logic known as the Law of Identity! This law says no living entity can change its nature/essence. A is A and can never be B! Not even God can change his nature!

That is NOT what the Law of Identity says. In logic, the law of identity states that each thing is identical at time t with itself at time t.

There is no prohibition against something changing over time in the law of Identity. For instance a tree can become flooring. But it cannot be both a tree and flooring at the same time.

If a leopard jumped into a vat of bleach, it would change its spots. Some people in India change their skin colour using bleach.
23 The Ethiopian will change his skin
and the leopard its spots?
Also you will be able to do good in future
who have learned to do evil.
The text addresses a particular group of hard-hearted reprobates. It is not saying that it is impossible for a skin colour to change. It is pointing out that seasoned reprobates changing to doing good is rare.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Hearing comes by the Word of God.

The profound truth that "faith comes by hearing" underscores a divine harmony where the grace of God intersects with human openness. It is God Himself, through the work of the Holy Spirit, who opens our ears and softens our hearts, enabling us to truly "hear" the transformative message of the gospel. While human messengers—pastors, teachers, loved ones—may speak the words, it is ultimately the Spirit of God who makes us receptive, turning mere sound waves into the living word that quickens our spirits and cultivates faith within us. This realization invites humility, recognizing that our coming to faith is not merely the result of our own searching or intellect but a gracious act of God drawing us to Himself. It reminds us that every moment of spiritual insight or deepening faith is a gift, an encounter with the divine made possible not by human effort but by the loving initiative of God who speaks into the depths of our beings.

it's not the ears that get saved first buddy it's the heart. It ain't the flesh that gets saved either it's the soul.

The word is the light buddy, and the light enters the heart.

That's for everyone, everyone has the light enter there heart, the parable of Luke demonstrates that, titus demonstrates it to. where by Gods offers salvation to all by his grace.


In Luke that grace, the word the light a seed is offered in the heart, that light does not receive and it's taken away, on three separate accounts mentioned in Luke buddy. Even one account where joy came aand the light stayed for a while in the heart before it was taken away.


But theres probably alot more than three accounts buddy.

heres why

1 Corinthians 15

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

this is also the parable of Luke buddy.

the word the seed the light.

is sown into to perishable body


into dishonor

into weakness.

But on many accounts it's then taken away.

And it's taken away before it's raised up in glory

That light hasn't bloomed in the heart.

but it was there. It entered.

WHy has it not raised up buddy.

the account of people who where raised up in Luke, where also dead where also perishable where Also in dishonor.

What happened,

Did the heart surrender to the light. ,Maybe probably

did the heart repent, maybe probably


did the heart then go and get baptised. ,Maybe probably


The light of all men has come into the world.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were

the light enters into all hearts, but rejects because there deeds don't accept the light.

the light stays for a while.

but then it leaves.


How long can it stay before it leaves.