Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yes God has decided who to save but that is not called election or predestination, that is called love. He has decided to save believers.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Pre-destination and election is what He chooses to do with believers, hence the title of this OP.

People keep confusing God's choice to save believers with God's choice on what to do with them.

He squarely puts the responsibility to believe on us.

How can this type of person believe


None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

And all my points are related to predestination and election

Just not as you know it

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Yes they have a will, but the default setting of fallen man is enmity with God. Thus, he continually works in opposition to God.
When the gospel call goes forth, it is for all. But while it will be physically heard by all, only those given spiritual hearing will respond in faith.
What you call the mercy seed I would call the circumcision of the heart.
What I believe happens in salvation is the restoration of the fallen man to the spiritual condition before the fall with one very important addition...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

i I take it your talking about spiritual circumcision of the heart.

Surly the circumcision begins if the seed accepts the dirt,

Then the dirt ls given more will if he his willing.

Like surely he has to be baptised first, before more will comes.












.

 

[sawdust]

How can this type of person believe


None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

And all my points are related to predestination and election

Just not as you know it

It's called grace. Able to do what man cannot on his own behalf. In this case it controls the flesh so the soul is free to decide for themself.

 

[sawdust]

And all my points are related to predestination and election

And if your understanding is wrong? What good are your points? Blunt points do nothing.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

It's called grace. Able to do what man cannot on his own behalf. In this case it controls the flesh so the soul is free to decide for themself.

in this case would imply not everyone is in that case.

Well everyone is in that case.

You put the emphasis on the person has to believe.

Now your saying in this case the grace would control the flesh.

So which one is it buddy .

I think you may have over sharpened your pencil, maybe you got to much sawdust up your nose or something, lol

 

[Cameron143]

i I take it your talking about spiritual circumcision of the heart.

Surly the circumcision begins if the seed accepts the dirt,

Then the dirt ls given more will if he his willing.

Like surely he has to be baptised first, before more will comes.












.

It is spiritual circumcision. The dirt and seed analogy I don't fully understand your usage or definition of seed and dirt.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

It is spiritual circumcision. The dirt and seed analogy I don't fully understand your usage or definition of seed and dirt.

I was just wondering coz Jesus talked about seeds a lot.

And he spoke in parables, a lot to.

So I was kinda speaking a parable


I was asking when you plant a seed, will the seed take a hold of the dirt,.or will the dirt take a hold of the seed.

 

[Cameron143]

I was just wondering coz talked about seeds a lot.

And he spoke in parables, a lot to.

So I was kinda speaking a parable


I was asking when you plant a seed, will the seed take a hold of the dirt,.or will the dirt take a hold of the seed.

In the parable, the field is the world and the seed is the gospel.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

In the parable, the field is the world and the seed is the gospel.

Isa 61:11 NIV - 11 For as the soil makes the sprout come up and a garden causes seeds to grow, so the Sovereign LORD will make righteousness and praise spring up before all nations.

So I'm hoping to open some basics here on who plants the seed.

As I think it's time we got down to some basics.

So how can a person believe without a seed being planted.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

In the parable, the field is the world and the seed is the gospel.

I'll give you a helping hand.

Everybody is given a seed of grace,

But not everyone is saved by that seed of grace.


Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.”

So what seed is in the word of God buddy, I'm pretty sure it's the light

And if you look at this they've all had a seed but the seed could not have been unmerited favor, as it didn't save them.

So the seed has to accept the dirt.

As we see in the last part here the seed accepted the dirt in some people but not others.

So the seed is given on the bases it. accepts the dirt, how can it be given on the bases of a favour

 

[Cameron143]

I'll give you a helping hand.

Everybody is given a seed of grace,

But not everyone is saved by that seed of grace.


Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.”

So what seed is in the word of God buddy, I'm pretty sure it's the light

And if you look at this they've all had a seed but the seed could not have been unmerited favor, as it didn't save them.

So the seed has to accept the dirt.

As we see in the last part here the seed accepted the dirt in some people but not others.

So the seed is given on the bases it. accepts the dirt, how can it be given on the bases of a favour

The different types of soil represent the hearts on which the gospel lands.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The different types of soil represent the hearts on which the gospel lands.

it doesn't just land buddy, the word of God goes into there heart, as we see in the parable.

And we see in the scriptures it says the word of God is a seed.

We also know the word is the light.

So a seed of light has gone into there heart and been taken away.

How is it a favor buddy

 

[sawdust]

in this case would imply not everyone is in that case.

Well everyone is in that case.

You put the emphasis on the person has to believe.

Now your saying in this case the grace would control the flesh.

So which one is it buddy .

I think you may have over sharpened your pencil, maybe you got to much sawdust up your nose or something, lol

How do you think the Romans 1 type got to know what the truth is so they could suppress it? (ie.they rejected the truth) Obviously not everyone does reject the truth at the point of God consciousness.

Roman 1:18-23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

They did not change the glory of God out of ignorance but were very much aware eternal power and Deity existed. How does God show them? By means of grace which is His power to see His will done. In this case, His will was to make His existence known. Why start there?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

No-one can begin to seek God unless first He believes He exists.

I don't put the emphasis on believing. It is the Lord who tells us to believe. Maybe a person will and maybe they won't.

The onus to believe is on us, grace and faith comes from the Lord.

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:29-31)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

How do you think the Romans 1 type got to know what the truth is so they could suppress it? (ie.they rejected the truth) Obviously not everyone does reject the truth at the point of God consciousness.

Roman 1:18-23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

They did not change the glory of God out of ignorance but were very much aware eternal power and Deity existed. How does God show them? By means of grace which is His power to see His will done. In this case, His will was to make His existence known. Why start there?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

No-one can begin to seek God unless first He believes He exists.

I don't put the emphasis on believing. It is the Lord who tells us to believe. Maybe a person will and maybe they won't.

The onus to believe is on us, grace and faith comes from the Lord.

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:29-31)

Romans 1 is a letter addressed to church leaders on how instruct people, nothing more buddy.

A person does not become saved by reading it.

It's also Paul expressing His faith.

And his faith is not everyone who reads it.

The seed still has to accept the dirt in people hearts. And is given to all hearts

First the seed is given, ( the word directly to the heart), a seed of light.

Then if they listen to the seed it grows.

But as we see they don't all listen, and keep following the devil, and the seed is removed from the heart buddy.

And as we see the seed only grows if the seed grows patience in the heart.

So how long is it before the seed is turned into salvation

 

[Cameron143]

it doesn't just land buddy, the word of God goes into there heart, as we see in the parable.

And we see in the scriptures it says the word of God is a seed.

We also know the word is the light.

So a seed of light has gone into there heart and been taken away.

How is it a favor buddy

It's a metaphor. The only soil that produces a harvest is the last one. It represents true salvation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

It's a metaphor. The only soil that produces a harvest is the last one. It represents true salvation.

lol the dirt doesn't produce anything, the seed does

 

[Cameron143]

lol the dirt doesn't produce anything, the seed does

Sure. But only in good soil.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Sure. But only in good soil.

there is no good soil

None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one. (Rom. 3:10–12)

 

[tylerbones1313]

So what seed is in the word of God buddy, I'm pretty sure it's the light

And if you look at this they've all had a seed but the seed could not have been unmerited favor, as it didn't save them.

The seed is indeed the word of God, which includes the message of God's grace offered through Jesus Christ. This grace is available to all, but its reception and the resulting spiritual transformation depend on the hearer's response, not on a deficiency in the message itself (could not have been unmerited favor, as it (meaning the Word (seed)) didn't save them.) The parable encourages self-examination of our hearts' condition and challenges us to be receptive and faithful hearers of the word, allowing it to bear fruit in our lives. The parable emphasizes the importance of the condition of the heart in receiving and responding to God's word, rather than suggesting that the seed itself is insufficient or ineffective. Salvation is not contingent on the quality of the seed but on the reception and response of the individual's heart to the message of the gospel. Therefore, while the seed represents the word of God, it is the response of faith and obedience to that word that leads to salvation, not the inherent qualities of the seed itself.

So the seed has to accept the dirt.
As we see in the last part here the seed accepted the dirt in some people but not others.
So the seed is given on the bases it. accepts the dirt, how can it be given on the bases of a favour

The statement about the parable of the sower suggesting that "the seed has to accept the dirt" is a misinterpretation of the parable as presented in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In the parable, the seed represents the word of God (Luke 8:11), and the different types of soil represent the various responses of people's hearts to the message of the Kingdom of God. The focus is on the condition of the soil (the heart) and not on the seed's action or ability to choose the soil.

The seed (the word of God) is constant and does not change based on the soil; it is sown indiscriminately across all types of soil (human hearts). The crucial factor is the condition of the soil, which determines whether the seed will take root and grow.

Therefore, the parable emphasizes the responsibility of the hearers to be receptive to God's word, rather than suggesting the word of God selects its recipients based on their receptiveness. The focus is on individuals to prepare their hearts (soil) to receive the word (seed) effectively, so it can take root and produce spiritual fruit. The parable teaches about the Kingdom of God's nature and the varied responses to the gospel, urging listeners to examine their hearts and be open to God's transforming word.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The seed is indeed the word of God, which includes the message of God's grace offered through Jesus Christ. This grace is available to all, but its reception and the resulting spiritual transformation depend on the hearer's response, not on a deficiency in the message itself (could not have been unmerited favor, as it (meaning the Word (seed)) didn't save them.) The parable encourages self-examination of our hearts' condition and challenges us to be receptive and faithful hearers of the word, allowing it to bear fruit in our lives. The parable emphasizes the importance of the condition of the heart in receiving and responding to God's word, rather than suggesting that the seed itself is insufficient or ineffective. Salvation is not contingent on the quality of the seed but on the reception and response of the individual's heart to the message of the gospel. Therefore, while the seed represents the word of God, it is the response of faith and obedience to that word that leads to salvation, not the inherent qualities of the seed itself.



The statement about the parable of the sower suggesting that "the seed has to accept the dirt" is a misinterpretation of the parable as presented in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In the parable, the seed represents the word of God (Luke 8:11), and the different types of soil represent the various responses of people's hearts to the message of the Kingdom of God. The focus is on the condition of the soil (the heart) and not on the seed's action or ability to choose the soil.

The seed (the word of God) is constant and does not change based on the soil; it is sown indiscriminately across all types of soil (human hearts). The crucial factor is the condition of the soil, which determines whether the seed will take root and grow.

Therefore, the parable emphasizes the responsibility of the hearers to be receptive to God's word, rather than suggesting the word of God selects its recipients based on their receptiveness. The focus is on individuals to prepare their hearts (soil) to receive the word (seed) effectively, so it can take root and produce spiritual fruit. The parable teaches about the Kingdom of God's nature and the varied responses to the gospel, urging listeners to examine their hearts and be open to God's transforming word.

I'm loaded with trump's buddy.

It's say here nobody knows how the seed grows.

And it also says the seed grows.

Nothing about it being dependant on the dirt bro


Mark 4:26-29
“And He said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”