Predestination is misunderstood...

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Thunderrr-mental said:
Correction it says he who believes in him is not condemned.

Do you understand to say to someone if you don't believe you are condemned is judging someone by your own law.

You need him to help you believe, and if for some reason you even you don't believe his sword will condemn you.
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I just said what the word says
John 3:
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Thes 2:
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
Johann said:
Not so-


Your statement "Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief" is incorrect from a Christian theological perspective.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died for the sins of all humankind, including the sin of unbelief.

Firstly, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that Christ died for the sins of all people. 1 John 2:2 (ESV) states, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Similarly, Titus 2:14 (ESV) proclaims, "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

These verses indicate that Christ's death extends to cover the sins of everyone, including the sin of unbelief.

Secondly, the Bible teaches that unbelief itself is a form of sin. Hebrews 3:12 (ESV) warns against hardening one's heart toward God, stating, "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." Furthermore, Mark 16:16 (ESV) notes that those who do not believe in Christ will face judgment, indicating that unbelief is a sin deserving punishment.
Thirdly, the Bible reveals that Christ's death covers every kind of sin, even those committed unwillingly or ignorantly. Matthew 12:31-32 (ESV) states, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This passage shows that Christ's death covers all kinds of sins except for the deliberate rejection of the Holy Spirit.
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I disagree

If he died for the sin of unbelief, then EVERYONE would get to heaven.

God gives us until our deathbed to repent and come to Christ. If we die in unbelief, we will suffer our fate. Because Jesus did not die for that sin
 
Genez said:
Though we agree.. I was adding an important emphasis that seemed to be missing...
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The context of Titus 2:11-12 (ESV) is a letter addressed to Titus, a church leader appointed by Paul to minister to the churches on Crete. In this portion of the epistle, Paul provides instructions for promoting holiness and sound doctrine among the members of the church.
Titus 2:11-12 (ESV) reads:
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age."

Paul begins by explaining that the grace of God, which appears to all people, brings salvation. This grace trains believers to reject ungodliness and worldly desires, encouraging them instead to lead lives marked by sobriety, righteousness, and godliness. The purpose of this instruction is to equip believers to live in accordance with their faith in the present age.

Overall, the context of Titus 2:11-12 emphasizes the transformative power of God's grace, which empowers believers to overcome sinful patterns and pursue lives characterized by virtue and piety. This passage serves as a reminder that the grace of God is not merely a ticket to heaven but a dynamic force that shapes the lives of believers in the here and now.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
But God was talking about the nation of Israel there. Not induvidual people

The calvinistinterpretation of Rom 9 - 11 is also flawed. It is taken out of Context

Jesus told jerusalem how often he wanted (willed) to take them under his wing 9he spoke of the time he was in heaven before he came to earth) But they were unwilling

Gods will was they be saved.

They rejected Gods will..
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Would you do me a favor? Can you read Acts 2:23 and tell me who is responsible for Jesus' death?
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Yes, He circumcized (washed and made us clean)

but before he does this, we need to circumcise our hearts.

two different things
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The only way I can make sense of it is to obey Peter's words....

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be all glory, ​
both now and to the day of Eternity. 2 Pe 3:18​

We can circumcise our hearts by cutting out our old way of seeing things, as the Word of God exposes what we used to believe, now to be seen as dead skin...
 
Genez said:
The only way I can make sense of it is to obey Peter's words....

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be all glory, ​
both now and to the day of Eternity. 2 Pe 3:18​

We can circumcise our hearts by cutting out our old way of seeing things, as the Word of God exposes what we used to believe, now to be seen as dead skin...
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Yes, I agree..

But we also must circumcise our hearts to see our guilt and shame and repent and come to christ..

Thats what the gospel message shoud do to us.. as we react to it
 
Cameron143 said:
I never claimed all men. I said all men in the natural estate. We walk in the light as He is in the light. The knowledge of good and evil is present in all mankind as a result of the fall. That's why God removed Adam and Eve from the garden, so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and remain in the fallen estate eternally.
No one has to take a class to learn to sin. We come forth speaking lies. We come forth corrupted already. Hence, our need of salvation.
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All men in the natural estate (be they fallen or not) without God's grace wouldn't even know darkness from light. It is by means of God's grace through the Word men are informed of good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is not present in man since the Fall. What is present is a corruption in the body (sin nature) and the imputation of Adam's sin (spiritual death). Good and evil must be learned. We are not born evil, we are born wrong and that wrongness is in our bodies not our souls. God creates our soul and they are neither good nor evil. We learn and become culpable of evil because the sin nature within has short circuited the proper functioning of the body and every impulse is toward self-preservation. Without a connection to God (spiritually dead) we have no way of knowing what is good and true therefore we automatically are led by our corrupt flesh which is anti-God.

God steps into that picture with love and mercy and applies His grace to our situation by controlling the sin nature so it cannot lead us and by revealing His truth. We are made free to accept or reject His truth. It is a process and those who learn from Him come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
Yes, I agree..

But we also must circumcise our hearts to see our guilt and shame and repent and come to christ..

Thats what the gospel message shoud do to us.. as we react to it
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Can you do me a favor? Please post Scripture references-too much philosophizing going on here without working with what really matters, the truth as it stands written in Scriptures-Perfect Tense.
Thanks.
J.
 
Genez said:
Sometimes... the gardener may have to make more than one pass to break up the soil, to properly receive the seed.
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I don't think there is any "sometimes" about it. I think everyone requires more than a ''I told you once" scenario. ;)
 
sawdust said:
All men in the natural estate (be they fallen or not) without God's grace wouldn't even know darkness from light. It is by means of God's grace through the Word men are informed of good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is not present in man since the Fall. What is present is a corruption in the body (sin nature) and the imputation of Adam's sin (spiritual death). Good and evil must be learned. We are not born evil, we are born wrong and that wrongness is in our bodies not our souls. God creates our soul and they are neither good nor evil. We learn and become culpable of evil because the sin nature within has short circuited the proper functioning of the body and every impulse is toward self-preservation. Without a connection to God (spiritually dead) we have no way of knowing what is good and true therefore we automatically are led by our corrupt flesh which is anti-God.

God steps into that picture with love and mercy and applies His grace to our situation by controlling the sin nature so it cannot lead us and by revealing His truth. We are made free to accept or reject His truth. It is a process and those who learn from Him come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.
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The context of John 6:45 (ESV) is part of Jesus' discourse on bread from heaven, which includes the theme of coming to Jesus as the source of spiritual nourishment and salvation. In John 6:45, Jesus claims that the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies concerning universal instruction is realized in his ministry. The verse specifically quotes Isaiah 54:13, which promises that God will instruct all nations. By connecting this Old Testament prophecy to his own teaching, Jesus establishes his authority and the universal scope of his message.
Here is the verse in its entirety:
"It is written in the Prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."

In this verse, Jesus connects the Old Testament prophecy of universal instruction to the reality of his own teaching ministry. He claims that those who hear and learn from God the Father will inevitably come to him. This claim emphasizes the unity and continuity between the Old Testament and Jesus' own message, as well as the universal scope of his mission.
Overall, the context of John 6:45 highlights the authority of Jesus' teaching, the universal scope of his message, and the unity between the Old Testament and his own ministry. The verse also foreshadows the theme of universal salvation, which is developed throughout the rest of the book of John.

Romans 10:17 states, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." The context of this verse is Paul's discussion of the importance of preaching the gospel and the need for people to hear it in order to believe and be saved. In the preceding verses, Paul quotes from the Old Testament to emphasize that faith comes from hearing the message of Christ (Romans 10:14-15). He then explains that hearing the message is necessary for people to believe and call on Christ for salvation (Romans 10:13-14). In verse 17, Paul emphasizes that faith comes from hearing the word of Christ, which refers to the message of the gospel. The verse highlights the importance of preaching and hearing the gospel message in order for people to have faith in Christ and be saved. Overall, the context of Romans 10:17 emphasizes the importance of sharing the gospel message with others and the role of hearing in the process of coming to faith in Christ.

Well-that's off my chest-HalleluYAH!
 
sawdust said:
All men in the natural estate (be they fallen or not) without God's grace wouldn't even know darkness from light. It is by means of God's grace through the Word men are informed of good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is not present in man since the Fall. What is present is a corruption in the body (sin nature) and the imputation of Adam's sin (spiritual death). Good and evil must be learned. We are not born evil, we are born wrong and that wrongness is in our bodies not our souls. God creates our soul and they are neither good nor evil. We learn and become culpable of evil because the sin nature within has short circuited the proper functioning of the body and every impulse is toward self-preservation. Without a connection to God (spiritually dead) we have no way of knowing what is good and true therefore we automatically are led by our corrupt flesh which is anti-God.

God steps into that picture with love and mercy and applies His grace to our situation by controlling the sin nature so it cannot lead us and by revealing His truth. We are made free to accept or reject His truth. It is a process and those who learn from Him come to Christ.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me.
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I apologize. I was using the natural man as opposed to the spiritual man. I truly don't understand how there is a natural man who is not still in the fallen estate.
And corruption, as we discussed before is in every aspect of man...mind, heart, and will. That's why every part is dealt with in salvation.
The other things we have discussed before and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
I just said what the word says
John 3:
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Thes 2:
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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well how can he can believe if he's spiritualy dead.

Hes already in a condemned state even if he doesn't believe in the son
 
Johann said:
"It's essential to clarify the distinction between being 'quickened' and receiving the Holy Spirit. In Christian theology, being 'quickened' typically refers to the concept of regeneration or spiritual rebirth, where an individual is made alive spiritually by the work of the Holy Spirit. This process involves a transformation of the heart and soul, enabling a person to respond to God in faith.

Receiving the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, often refers to the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life after they have accepted Christ as their Savior. This indwelling occurs at the moment of conversion and is a distinct aspect of the believer's relationship with God.

While being 'quickened' and receiving the Holy Spirit are interconnected aspects of a believer's spiritual journey, they represent different facets of God's work in salvation. Being 'quickened' initiates the process of regeneration, while receiving the Holy Spirit signifies the ongoing presence and guidance of God in a believer's life.
It is crucial not to conflate these terms but rather to recognize their unique roles in the believer's experience of salvation and spiritual growth."
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I agree to an extant. Unfortunately it has been my experience there are many who think that regeneration is the giving/indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

One responds in faith because one has been given faith (the gift of God, by grace through faith) but this is not to be confused with one believing the truth, an act of our volition. If you are spiritually alive you have been saved. The Gospel has already been applied.
 
sawdust said:
I don't think there is any "sometimes" about it. I think everyone requires more than a ''I told you once" scenario. ;)
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Sometimes... a gardener may have to make more than
one pass to break up the soil, to properly receive the seed.


That's good... "I can dig it!" ..............
images
 
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