Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

I know you are going to disagree here brother-


Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." This passage emphasizes that salvation is a result of God's grace, not based on human merit or works.
J.

Same applies as for Paul's other need for grace.

While unregenerate? Our flesh has a tyrannical control over our souls.
Thus crippling our soul's ability to choose for, or even against, believing in Christ.
Without grace? By default, we all would automatically reject the salvation message.

Grace in salvation over powers our flesh and pushes it down. Silencing it.
Thus enabling our soul for a needed moment of freedom from the slave master of the flesh to make a choice set before us by God.

If grace were not applied by God during the times of deciding for salvation?
No person could possibly be free to believe with their soul.

Grace when given reverses the helplessness of our condition of our fallen state to choose and do God's will.
But, that grace only frees our soul to make a right choice, not guarantee it.
That is why God is now free to judge us... because, it is our own choice!

grace and peace ................

 

[Genez]

They can with GRACE! How many times must I say it?

Catch them when they are walking in grace? Once.

 

[sawdust]

All men love darkness in the natural estate. And I believe that men of their own volition believe. But it is God who is both the author and finisher of our faith. Were it left to us alone, we would never come to faith. And were it left to us, we would all fall away. Thankfully, there is no stipulation in regard to our failures other than chastisement. The first covenant was not so gracious.

It does not say all men love darkness because in the same breath it speaks of those who practice truth. In the natural state men are utterly ignorant of good and evil, this is why, good and evil must be learned. This is why no-one could be saved if not for the grace of God.

It is not left to us. I have said it so many times why can't you hear?

 

[Johann]

Same applies as for Paul's other need for grace.

While unregenerate? Our flesh has a tyrannical control over our souls.
Thus crippling our soul's ability to choose for, or even against, believing in Christ.
Without grace? By default, we all would automatically reject the salvation message.

Grace in salvation over powers our flesh and pushes it down. Silencing it.
Thus enabling our soul for a needed moment of freedom from the slave master of the flesh to make a choice set before us by God.

If grace were not applied by God during the times of deciding for salvation?
No person could possibly be free to believe with their soul.

Grace when given reverses the helplessness of our condition of our fallen state to choose and do God's will.
But, that grace only frees our soul to make a right choice, not guarantee it.
That is why God is now free to judge us... because, it is our own choice!

grace and peace ................

Just to clarify brother-



Human Responsibility: It is true that human beings have the capacity to make choices, including moral decisions that impact their relationship with God. Throughout the Bible, individuals are held responsible for their actions and choices, and these decisions can have consequences, including judgment.

God's Sovereignty: While human choice plays a role in shaping our spiritual journey, God's sovereignty remains paramount. God, as the ultimate judge, holds authority over all creation and will ultimately judge each person according to His righteous standards.

Divine Judgment: The Bible teaches that God will judge all individuals based on their deeds and the condition of their hearts. While human choice is a factor in this judgment, it is ultimately God who determines the standards of righteousness and justice.

Grace and Mercy: Despite our choices and actions, God's grace and mercy are also central themes in Christian theology. Through Christ, believers have access to forgiveness and redemption, demonstrating God's love and compassion towards humanity.

In conclusion, while human choice does play a role in our accountability before God, divine judgment is ultimately based on God's righteous standards. It is through a combination of human responsibility and God's sovereignty that the concept of judgment is understood within Christian theology.

Would you agree?
J.

 

[Genez]

It does not say all men love darkness because in the same breath it speaks of those who practice truth. In the natural state men are utterly ignorant of good and evil, this is why, good and evil must be learned. This is why no-one could be saved if not for the grace of God.

It is not left to us. I have said it so many times why can't you hear?

Sometimes... the gardener may have to make more than one pass to break up the soil, to properly receive the seed.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm learning a lot here brother-and new terminologies-but I don't hold to Calvin and his view of the elect-no offense.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


So then faith cometh ... - This I take to be clearly the language of the objector. As if he had said, by the very quotation which you have made from Isaiah, it appears that a report was necessary. He did not condemn people for not believing what they had not heard; but he complains of those who did not believe a message actually delivered to them. Even by this passage, therefore, it seems that a message was necessary, that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the divine message. It could not be right, therefore, to condemn those who had not obeyed the gospel because they had not heard it; and hence, not right to make salvation dependent on a condition which was, by the arrangement of God, put beyond their power. The very quotation from Isaiah, therefore, goes to confirm the objection in Rom_10:14;15.
By hearing - Our translation has varied the expression here, which is the same in two places in the Greek: “Isaiah said, Who hath believed our report τῇ ἀκοῇ tē akoē? So then, you must admit that faith comes by that report ἐξ ἀκοῆς ex akoēs, and therefore this report or message is necessary.” When it is said that faith cometh by hearing, it is not meant that all who hear actually believe, for that is not true; but that faith does not exist unless there is a message, or report, to be heard or believed. It cannot come otherwise than by such a message; in other words, unless there is something made known to be believed. And this shows us at once the importance of the message, and the fact that people are converted by the instrumentality of truth, and of truth only.
Albert Barnes.


1 ) "So then faith cometh by hearing", (ara he pistis eks akoes) "Then the faith comes out of hearing;" He who refuses to hear the Word, through which knowledge of condemnation and conviction of sin comes, Pro_1:22-24 will never have or ' take hold of the "gift of faith," thru which media every sinner is offered salvation by placing his divinely offered gift of faith in Jesus Christ, Eph_2:8-9; Joh_3:16.

2) "And hearing," (he de akoe) "And the hearing," The hearing comes, the comprehensive, understanding comes, by the Word of God, as the holy spirit is poured out upon the sinner to make him understand the gravity or seriousness of his sins, Pro_1:22-23; Isa_32:14-15; Joh_16:7-11.

3) "By the word of God," (dia hrematos christou) "Through the clearly declared Word of Christ," God's Holy Spirit accompanies the teaching and preaching of the Word to convict and call sinners to repentance, to salvation, and to separated, consecrated living, to godliness. 0, that men might but obey the call of the Word and the spirit to service, as well as the call of men to accept, believe the true-form-gospel (three-tier-gospel) that Jesus Christ -
a) "died for our sins
b) was buried for our sins
C) and rose again, the third day for our sins, according to the scriptures." Any other form or pattern of belief, one that leaves out or doubts the resurrection, etc., or adds something to this and calls it "obeying the gospel," is a perverter of, not a proclaimer of the gospel of good tidings, according to the scriptures, 1Co_15:1-4; Gal_1:6-9; Act_1:14-16; Rom_10:16 above cited, certifies "-believing the report," glad tidings, good news report of Isa_53:1-12, is obeying the gospel.


I'll be interested to know your view of Calvin and the elect-opening a can of worms here-I know.
J.

In the Westminster Confession there is a phrase to the effect...so as not to do violence to the free will of man...or something to that effect. I believe people who are spiritually awakened freely choose to believe. In salvation, man is not a bystander. He is intricately involved. What begins as an action of God becomes a reality in those converted. It is the individual who asks...what shall we do? It is the individual's desire to pursue God at this point. It may be under the aegis of the Spirit, but the individual desires in the strongest of terms to have the weight of sin removed and have peace with and reconciliation to God.
I don't know exactly how it all works, but I do know it begins with God. And that remains the tenor of the relationship. We are to respond to the work of God...work out your own salvation. How? It is God at work in uou,willing and doing of His good pleasure. Every day should be an adventure for the Christian. Like Jesus who only did what He saw the Father doing, we should identify what the Father is doing and join ourselves to that. Usually this is accomplished simply in the things we are already doing or the circumstances that unfold in our lives. This is why we are reminded that whether we eat or drink,or whatever we do,do it all to the glory of God. This means something as menial as brushing our teeth can be an act of worship or a wasted opportunity.
But in all this, the purpose is relationship with God. Having no greater gift to give Abraham, He gave Himself as his reward. This is what we were made for...to simply enjoy God. And the more we are satisfied in Him, the more glorified He will be in us. But we can only do this in relationship with Him. Hence,...apart from me, ye can do nothing.

 

[Cameron143]

It does not say all men love darkness because in the same breath it speaks of those who practice truth. In the natural state men are utterly ignorant of good and evil, this is why, good and evil must be learned. This is why no-one could be saved if not for the grace of God.

It is not left to us. I have said it so many times why can't you hear?

I never claimed all men. I said all men in the natural estate. We walk in the light as He is in the light. The knowledge of good and evil is present in all mankind as a result of the fall. That's why God removed Adam and Eve from the garden, so they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and remain in the fallen estate eternally.
No one has to take a class to learn to sin. We come forth speaking lies. We come forth corrupted already. Hence, our need of salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As far as justification goes...there is only 1 day in history that sins were paid for. That's when justification occurred. Salvation is the application of Jesus' work on the cross to individuals in space and time.

I am not denying this

But justification is nt applied to an induvidual until. They have faith

otherwise, there is no need to have faith. In fact, the chosen might as well be born perfect.. because they are already saved.. Their sin was paid for..

But the issue, is,, not all sin has been paid for

 

[Johann]

In the Westminster Confession there is a phrase to the effect...so as not to do violence to the free will of man...or something to that effect. I believe people who are spiritually awakened freely choose to believe. In salvation, man is not a bystander. He is intricately involved. What begins as an action of God becomes a reality in those converted. It is the individual who asks...what shall we do? It is the individual's desire to pursue God at this point. It may be under the aegis of the Spirit, but the individual desires in the strongest of terms to have the weight of sin removed and have peace with and reconciliation to God.
I don't know exactly how it all works, but I do know it begins with God. And that remains the tenor of the relationship. We are to respond to the work of God...work out your own salvation. How? It is God at work in uou,willing and doing of His good pleasure. Every day should be an adventure for the Christian. Like Jesus who only did what He saw the Father doing, we should identify what the Father is doing and join ourselves to that. Usually this is accomplished simply in the things we are already doing or the circumstances that unfold in our lives. This is why we are reminded that whether we eat or drink,or whatever we do,do it all to the glory of God. This means something as menial as brushing our teeth can be an act of worship or a wasted opportunity.
But in all this, the purpose is relationship with God. Having no greater gift to give Abraham, He gave Himself as his reward. This is what we were made for...to simply enjoy God. And the more we are satisfied in Him, the more glorified He will be in us. But we can only do this in relationship with Him. Hence,...apart from me, ye can do nothing.

Absolutely spot on brother-here it is-


"I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

This excerpt highlights the balance between God's sovereignty and human free will as articulated in the Westminster Confession of Faith. It affirms God's ordaining of all events while ensuring that human free will is not violated or overridden in the process.

Additional info-

The Westminster Confession of Faith was written by the Westminster Assembly, which was called together by the Long Parliament in 1643 during the English Civil War. The Assembly met regularly in Westminster Abbey until 1649 and completed the confession in 1646. It was presented to Parliament, which approved it after some revisions in June 1648

The Westminster Confession of Faith has since become a significant doctrinal standard for English-speaking Presbyterians and has been adopted by various Presbyterian bodies in America and England, as well as by some Congregationalists and Baptists-

You do realize we don't believe all the writings of Calvin? But I concur with your post to me-going through a trying time in my own walk with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[sawdust]

Without grace? By default, we all would automatically reject the salvation message.

I would go even further and say without grace we wouldn't even know there is a message. I believe it is an act of His grace that He reveals Himself in the first place. Needless to say, I concur that even with the revelation, there is need for His grace to "strangle" our sin nature so our wills can be free from the tyranny of the sin nature.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Circumcision of the Heart:

Spiritual Transformation: Circumcision of the heart symbolizes an inner change, a spiritual renewal that goes beyond external rituals. It signifies a purification of one's inner being, thoughts, and desires.

Old Testament Roots: The idea of circumcision of the heart finds its origins in the Old Testament, where God calls His people to circumcise their hearts and not just their flesh (Deuteronomy 10:16).

New Covenant Fulfillment: In the New Testament, this concept is further developed, emphasizing the importance of genuine faith and inner righteousness over outward observances (Romans 2:28-29).

Pricking and Justification:
Symbolic Pricking: The act of pricking symbolizes the cutting away of sin and unbelief from the heart, paving the way for spiritual renewal and transformation.

Justification at the Cross: The statement suggests that justification, or being declared righteous before God, was accomplished through Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This act provided the basis for reconciliation between humanity and God.

Application of Justification: The gospel message serves as the means by which individuals appropriate this justification by faith. Through hearing, believing, and responding to the gospel, individuals receive the benefits of Christ's atoning work on their behalf.

Gospel Application:
Justification by Faith: The gospel proclaims the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. It is through this message that individuals come to understand and receive the justification provided by

Christ's sacrifice.
Personal Reconciliation: The application of justification through the gospel results in personal reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins, and adoption into His family as children.
Transformational Impact: The gospel not only declares individuals righteous before God but also initiates a process of sanctification and ongoing spiritual growth as believers conform more closely to the image of Christ.

So-to sum it up-, the concept of being circumcised in their hearts signifies a deep spiritual transformation and renewal that goes beyond external rituals. Justification at the cross provides the foundation for this transformation, with the gospel serving as the means by which individuals appropriate this justification through faith. The application of justification through the gospel results in personal reconciliation with God and ongoing spiritual growth as believers walk in faith and obedience.


English Translation:
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins."
Lexical Analysis:
Καὶ (Kai): Conjunction meaning "and," connecting two clauses together.
ὑμᾶς (Hymas): Second person plural pronoun meaning "you".
ὄντας (Ontas): Present active participle of the verb "εἰμί (eimi)" meaning "being" or "were".
νεκρούς (Nekrou): Accusative plural adjective meaning "dead".
τοῖς (Tois): Dative plural definite article meaning "the".
παραπτῶμασιν (Paraptōmasin): Dative plural noun meaning "trespasses" or "transgressions".
καὶ (Kai): Conjunction meaning "and".
ταῖς (Tais): Dative plural definite article meaning "the".
ἁμαρτίαις (Hamartiais): Dative plural noun meaning "sins".

Theological Implications:
Paul uses vivid language to describe the spiritual state of the Ephesian Christians prior to their conversion. By using the term "dead," he conveys that they were completely separated from God and devoid of any spiritual life. This phrase highlights the severity of human depravity apart from divine intervention.

The use of the dative case in both instances ("to trespasses" and "to sins") suggests that the Ephesians were enmeshed within these conditions rather than merely being affected by them. They had become entangled in transgression and sinful behavior, which led to their spiritual demise.

Moreover, the conjunctions "and" connect the concepts of trespasses and sins, implying that both are intertwined elements contributing to one's spiritual death. Trespasses refer to specific acts of disobedience against God's commands, whereas sins denote a broader concept of failing to meet God's expectations. Together, they represent humanity's broken relationship with God and the consequences thereof.

Finally, the present tense of the verb "were dead" indicates that this was not simply a past event but also a continuous reality until the moment of salvation. In other words, the Ephesians remained spiritually dead until they received God's gracious gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Overall, Ephesians 2:1 provides a poignant reminder of the depth of human depravity without God's redeeming love and the radical transformation brought about by His mercy and grace. As such, it offers encouragement to those who struggle with feelings of guilt and shame, assuring them that God can bring beauty from even the darkest circumstances when one places their trust in Him.

Amen?

Notice, It said God to them to circumcise their hearts.

Thats what we do when the light goes on and we see our guilt and shame, and call out to Jesus.

We circumcise our hearts when we react to the message and recieve it with full assurance as the author of Hebrews says

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If God were only love, then your argument would hold. But God is also sovereign, holy, and just.

You just made my point for me

Heis holy. A holy God can not relate to sin, or the sinful

He is just, He demands a payment (death)

and He is love, He loved so much he sent his son and died for us

And He is equally glorified in the exercise of these attributes as He is in exercising love.
I understand the desire that all should be saved. I share it. That doesn't mean we should distort the truth concerning God and His ways. We should comport our understanding to what God reveals.

I agree,

he said he died for the world. Not the elect..

I'm not special in any way. God saved me in spite of who I am. And I'm not fatalistic. The gospel is to be preached to all. But Jesus doesn't turn goats into sheep. He seeks and He saves the sheep who are lost.

But in your own belief syst3em you must be, God chose you, and rejected the person sitting next to you. Your both equally guilty, But God saw somethign in you. And saved you. While he rejected him,

 

[Johann]

I am not denying this

But justification is nt applied to an induvidual until. They have faith

otherwise, there is no need to have faith. In fact, the chosen might as well be born perfect.. because they are already saved.. Their sin was paid for..

But the issue, is,, not all sin has been paid for

Incorrect-

Extent of Payment: The Bible teaches that Christ's death on the cross was a complete and sufficient payment for all sin (1 John 2:2). This means that all sin, past, present, and future, has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Personally I think we need to be very careful of our words and what we say.
J.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It was in God's mind. Jesus doesn't come again to pay for our sins. If we weren't justified at the cross, from whence does it come?

By grace through faith, and not of yourself, it is the gift of God

 

[Johann]

Notice, It said God to them to circumcise their hearts.

Thats what we do when the light goes on and we see our guilt and shame, and call out to Jesus.

We circumcise our hearts when we react to the message and recieve it with full assurance as the author of Hebrews says

Yes, the statement is generally correct when interpreted in the context of the Book of Hebrews. Specifically, the reference is to Hebrews 10:16-17, which reads:
"For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant."

And later in chapter 10, verse 22, the writer states:
"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

These verses suggest that the author encourages readers to approach God with confidence and certainty, having received the promise of salvation through faith in Christ. The image of "circumcising the heart" could be seen as symbolic language used to describe the process of fully committing oneself to God and embracing the message of salvation with sincere devotion and wholehearted obedience.
However, it is essential to remember that the original audience of Hebrews were Jewish Christians facing pressure to return to the old Mosaic Law. Thus, the use of circumcision imagery would have had particular relevance to them, given its historical connection to the Abrahamic Covenant and the establishment of the nation of Israel. For modern readers, the emphasis is on responding to the message of salvation with genuine faith and commitment, regardless of any specific biblical imagery employed.
J.

 

[Cameron143]

I am not denying this

But justification is nt applied to an induvidual until. They have faith

otherwise, there is no need to have faith. In fact, the chosen might as well be born perfect.. because they are already saved.. Their sin was paid for..

But the issue, is,, not all sin has been paid for

What do you mean not all sin is paid for?

 

[Genez]

Just to clarify brother-



Human Responsibility: It is true that human beings have the capacity to make choices, including moral decisions that impact their relationship with God. Throughout the Bible, individuals are held responsible for their actions and choices, and these decisions can have consequences, including judgment.J.

Does a person who someone else spiked his drink have responsibility for what he does after drinking it to harm himself and others?
Only the one who is sober, or chose himself to get intoxicated, would be responsible.

Likewise... only someone whom God has applied grace would be responsible for his bad choices....

That is why God must apply grace to all men at some times in their life, so all men can be held accountable to God!

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12​

.

 

[Johann]

They were convicted of their sin, it's the Holy Spirit's job. Please note, He is convicting the "world" which is full of "dead" people so the whole argument "dead people can't respond" is a fallacy when we understand the Spirit, by means of grace, can make it "as if" people are alive so they can hear the truth and respond of their own volition.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Indeed, their response shows they believed Peter's words which is why Peter then directed them to repent and be baptized.

I bet the problem is you think being quickened (as you call it) is receiving the Holy Spirit. Many make that mistake.

"It's essential to clarify the distinction between being 'quickened' and receiving the Holy Spirit. In Christian theology, being 'quickened' typically refers to the concept of regeneration or spiritual rebirth, where an individual is made alive spiritually by the work of the Holy Spirit. This process involves a transformation of the heart and soul, enabling a person to respond to God in faith.

Receiving the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, often refers to the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life after they have accepted Christ as their Savior. This indwelling occurs at the moment of conversion and is a distinct aspect of the believer's relationship with God.

While being 'quickened' and receiving the Holy Spirit are interconnected aspects of a believer's spiritual journey, they represent different facets of God's work in salvation. Being 'quickened' initiates the process of regeneration, while receiving the Holy Spirit signifies the ongoing presence and guidance of God in a believer's life.
It is crucial not to conflate these terms but rather to recognize their unique roles in the believer's experience of salvation and spiritual growth."

 

[Cameron143]

Absolutely spot on brother-here it is-


"I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

This excerpt highlights the balance between God's sovereignty and human free will as articulated in the Westminster Confession of Faith. It affirms God's ordaining of all events while ensuring that human free will is not violated or overridden in the process.

Additional info-

The Westminster Confession of Faith was written by the Westminster Assembly, which was called together by the Long Parliament in 1643 during the English Civil War. The Assembly met regularly in Westminster Abbey until 1649 and completed the confession in 1646. It was presented to Parliament, which approved it after some revisions in June 1648

The Westminster Confession of Faith has since become a significant doctrinal standard for English-speaking Presbyterians and has been adopted by various Presbyterian bodies in America and England, as well as by some Congregationalists and Baptists-

You do realize we don't believe all the writings of Calvin? But I concur with your post to me-going through a trying time in my own walk with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Shalom
Johann.

I've never read Calvin's writings. I am familiar with TULIP and largely agree with it, but as we discussed before, I come to my beliefs independently and differently than Calvin.

 

[Johann]

Does a person who someone else spiked his drink have responsibility for what he does after drinking it to harm himself and others?
Only the one who is sober, or chose himself to get intoxicated, would be responsible.

Likewise... only someone whom God has applied grace would be responsible for his bad choices....

That is why God must apply grace to all men at some times in their life, so all men can be held accountable to God!

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12​

.

I think you misunderstood my post brother-I was concurring with you.
J.