Predestination is misunderstood...
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Don't get me wrong! I take no credit in the fact that I was saved, as in "a work". God gets all the glory!
I am only saying that the order in which it took place seemed like my heart being changed came first, enabling me to believe.
Don't get me wrong! I take no credit in the fact that I was saved, as in "a work on my part". God gets all the glory!
I am only saying that the order in which it took place seemed like my heart being changed came first, enabling me to believe.
I am only saying that the order in which it took place seemed like my heart being changed came first, enabling me to believe.
Don't get me wrong! I take no credit in the fact that I was saved, as in "a work on my part". God gets all the glory!
I am only saying that the order in which it took place seemed like my heart being changed came first, enabling me to believe.
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That's because you have failed to understand that saved, according to Strong's concordance, means delivered.
There is a one time eternal deliverance=salvation that took place on the cross, but there are many deliverance's that the born again people receive as they sojourn here in this world. Example: When a born again child of God repents of a sin they have committed they are saved (delivered) from the results of that sin, and are back in fellowship with God.
Eternal salvation (deliverance) took place on the cross, for all of those that God gave to his Son ( John 6:37-40). There will be no more sacrifices for sins. Those that Christ died for will, at sometime in their life, be born again. Being born again is the result of having already been given the promise of an eternal inheritance on the cross.
After Christ died for those that his Father gave him, God looks upon them as holy and without blame and their sins are as far away from from God as the east is from the west (Psalms 103:12), however, when they are born, by natural birth, into this world they have inherited the sin of Adam, which makes it necessary for God, by his grace, to quicken them to a new spiritual life, in order to have a people that will honor and praise him. (Luke 19:37-38).
If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation, they will tend to make you believe that eternal deliverance is accomplished by our good works.
I am sure that you have a lot more questions. Let's hear them.
I critiqued your original questions, told you why they were foolish questions, and told you what I do believe.
Another foolish question. The Pharisees believed Jesus was the Messiah but did not want to believe it and behaved as though they did not believe. and were not justified. The demons believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they do not want to believe it and behave contrary to what they believe. and are not justified.
I was convinced by a vision and an answered prayer that Jesus is the Creator, my Saviour and my Lord, but after believing I wanted to believe it and I chose to begin to act in accord with that belief.
Another foolish question. The Pharisees believed Jesus was the Messiah but did not want to believe it and behaved as though they did not believe. and were not justified. The demons believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they do not want to believe it and behave contrary to what they believe. and are not justified.
I was convinced by a vision and an answered prayer that Jesus is the Creator, my Saviour and my Lord, but after believing I wanted to believe it and I chose to begin to act in accord with that belief.
I believe @John146 is correct-
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 Ψυχικὸς Psychikos|G5591|Adj-NMS|[The] natural δὲ de|G1161|Conj|however ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos|G444|N-NMS|man οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δέχεται dechetai|G1209|V-PIM/P-3S|accepts τὰ ta|G3588|Art-ANP|the things τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GNS|of the Πνεύματος Pneumatos|G4151|N-GNS|Spirit τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|- Θεοῦ· Theou|G2316|N-GMS|of God; μωρία mōria|G3472|N-NFS|foolishness γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for αὐτῷ autō|G846|PPro-DM3S|to him ἐστίν, estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|they are, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δύναται dynatai|G1410|V-PIM/P-3S|he is able γνῶναι, gnōnai|G1097|V-ANA|to understand [them], ὅτι hoti|G3754|Conj|because πνευματικῶς pneumatikōs|G4153|Adv|spiritually ἀνακρίνεται. anakrinetai|G350|V-PIM/P-3S|they are discerned.
Just in case you are interested-^^^^^^
the natural man. Note: psukikos, the animal man, one who lives in a natural state, and under the influence of his animal passions; for psukē means the inferior and sensual part of man, in opposition to nous, the understanding, or pneuma, the spirit. While the preceding explanation of the words involved has validity, it is not strictly correct for this context. Would "natural man" be in contrast with "intellectual man" or "rational man"?
Rather, "natural man" refers to unrenewed or unregenerate man, without the Holy Spirit; Hodge states "spiritual, when used in the New Testament of persons, never means intellectual. It always means one under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It therefore must have that meaning here" (p. 43).
Which ties in with this-
natural man -- The verse itself identifies him. A reference to a man who does not discern spiritual things.
NLTSB says "people who aren't spiritual", Unbelievers, whose minds are blinded, function in the natural world and see life only through physical eyes (see 2Co_4:4). They cannot appreciate the significance of the Good News, for it is essentially a spiritual message.
But the natural man -- The NIV inserts "the man without the Spirit" for the Greek "the natural man" or "physical man". In 1Co_2:12-13 the word "know" becomes "understand", and erroneously teaching that we cannot understand the Scripture without the direct operation of the Spirit.
the natural man -- Literally, “a natural man,” that is, a man who is not spiritual minded; one un-converted to Christ, one whose interests are confined to the things of this life.
Such a man depends on human wisdom for the solution of all his problems. He lives to please himself and to gratify the desires of the unconverted heart, hence is incapable of understanding and appreciating the things of God.
To him the plan of salvation, the wonderful revelation of God’s love, is folly. He cannot distinguish between worldly philosophy and spiritual truth.
%1Co_3:1; 1Co_15:44; 1Co_15:46, Psa_92:6, Pro_28:5, +*Jer_13:23, +Jas_3:15 g (sensual). Jud_1:19 g (sensual).
receiveth not. FS175B, +Gen_21:16, 1Ki_22:13, 2Ch_18:12, Amo_7:12, Mat_6:23; Mat_13:11, etc. Mat_16:23, *Joh_3:3-6; Joh_8:37; Joh_8:43; Joh_10:6; Joh_10:26-27; Joh_12:37-38; *Joh_14:17, *Rom_8:5-8, *2Co_4:3; *2Co_4:4, 1Jn_4:5.
the things. 1Co_2:12-13, 1Co_3:1, *Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8-15.
they. 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:23, Joh_3:4; Joh_8:51-52; Joh_10:20, Act_17:18; Act_17:20; Act_17:32; Act_18:15; Act_25:19; Act_26:24-25.
foolishness unto. +1Co_1:18; 1Co_4:10, Gen_6:5; Gen_8:21; Gen_31:28, 2Sa_6:16, 2Ki_5:11, 1Ch_15:29, Pro_24:7, Ecc_9:3, +*Jer_17:9, *Mar_7:21-23, *Joh_3:19; Joh_4:11; Joh_4:15; Joh_6:52; Joh_7:36, *Act_17:18, *Rom_8:7; *Rom_8:8, Eph_4:17-19; Eph_5:8, Tit_1:15.
neither can. *Pro_14:6, *Jer_6:10, Joh_1:5; *Joh_3:3; Joh_5:44; +*Joh_6:44; +*Joh_6:45; *Joh_8:43; *Joh_8:47; *Joh_14:17, Act_16:14, *Rom_8:7, **2Co_4:4-6, Col_3:3, *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:27; 1Jn_5:20, Jud_1:19, Rev_2:17; Rev_14:3.
are spiritually. T598, *Pro_25:14, *Pro_1:7; Pro_16:23; *Pro_28:5, *Ecc_8:5, Isa_8:16, *Dan_12:10, +*Joh_7:17, *2Co_4:6, Eph_5:8, Col_1:12-13, 1Th_5:4-5, 1Pe_2:9, +2Pe_3:5 (T707). *1Jn_2:8-11; *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:21, Rev_11:8 g.
discerned. 1Co_4:3-4; 1Co_9:3; 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27; 1Co_14:24, 2Sa_14:17, 1Ki_3:9, Psa_25:14, +*Pro_8:9, Mat_11:6, Luk_7:23; Luk_7:35; Luk_23:14, Act_4:9; Act_12:19; +*Act_17:11; Act_24:8; Act_25:26; Act_28:18 g.
Go through some of the references and see if we can understand the doctrine of Christ Jesus and cease from telling others of misrepresenting the Hagios D'varim of YHVH.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")
Shalom
J.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 Ψυχικὸς Psychikos|G5591|Adj-NMS|[The] natural δὲ de|G1161|Conj|however ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos|G444|N-NMS|man οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δέχεται dechetai|G1209|V-PIM/P-3S|accepts τὰ ta|G3588|Art-ANP|the things τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GNS|of the Πνεύματος Pneumatos|G4151|N-GNS|Spirit τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|- Θεοῦ· Theou|G2316|N-GMS|of God; μωρία mōria|G3472|N-NFS|foolishness γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for αὐτῷ autō|G846|PPro-DM3S|to him ἐστίν, estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|they are, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δύναται dynatai|G1410|V-PIM/P-3S|he is able γνῶναι, gnōnai|G1097|V-ANA|to understand [them], ὅτι hoti|G3754|Conj|because πνευματικῶς pneumatikōs|G4153|Adv|spiritually ἀνακρίνεται. anakrinetai|G350|V-PIM/P-3S|they are discerned.
Just in case you are interested-^^^^^^
the natural man. Note: psukikos, the animal man, one who lives in a natural state, and under the influence of his animal passions; for psukē means the inferior and sensual part of man, in opposition to nous, the understanding, or pneuma, the spirit. While the preceding explanation of the words involved has validity, it is not strictly correct for this context. Would "natural man" be in contrast with "intellectual man" or "rational man"?
Rather, "natural man" refers to unrenewed or unregenerate man, without the Holy Spirit; Hodge states "spiritual, when used in the New Testament of persons, never means intellectual. It always means one under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It therefore must have that meaning here" (p. 43).
Which ties in with this-
natural man -- The verse itself identifies him. A reference to a man who does not discern spiritual things.
NLTSB says "people who aren't spiritual", Unbelievers, whose minds are blinded, function in the natural world and see life only through physical eyes (see 2Co_4:4). They cannot appreciate the significance of the Good News, for it is essentially a spiritual message.
But the natural man -- The NIV inserts "the man without the Spirit" for the Greek "the natural man" or "physical man". In 1Co_2:12-13 the word "know" becomes "understand", and erroneously teaching that we cannot understand the Scripture without the direct operation of the Spirit.
the natural man -- Literally, “a natural man,” that is, a man who is not spiritual minded; one un-converted to Christ, one whose interests are confined to the things of this life.
Such a man depends on human wisdom for the solution of all his problems. He lives to please himself and to gratify the desires of the unconverted heart, hence is incapable of understanding and appreciating the things of God.
To him the plan of salvation, the wonderful revelation of God’s love, is folly. He cannot distinguish between worldly philosophy and spiritual truth.
%1Co_3:1; 1Co_15:44; 1Co_15:46, Psa_92:6, Pro_28:5, +*Jer_13:23, +Jas_3:15 g (sensual). Jud_1:19 g (sensual).
receiveth not. FS175B, +Gen_21:16, 1Ki_22:13, 2Ch_18:12, Amo_7:12, Mat_6:23; Mat_13:11, etc. Mat_16:23, *Joh_3:3-6; Joh_8:37; Joh_8:43; Joh_10:6; Joh_10:26-27; Joh_12:37-38; *Joh_14:17, *Rom_8:5-8, *2Co_4:3; *2Co_4:4, 1Jn_4:5.
the things. 1Co_2:12-13, 1Co_3:1, *Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8-15.
they. 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:23, Joh_3:4; Joh_8:51-52; Joh_10:20, Act_17:18; Act_17:20; Act_17:32; Act_18:15; Act_25:19; Act_26:24-25.
foolishness unto. +1Co_1:18; 1Co_4:10, Gen_6:5; Gen_8:21; Gen_31:28, 2Sa_6:16, 2Ki_5:11, 1Ch_15:29, Pro_24:7, Ecc_9:3, +*Jer_17:9, *Mar_7:21-23, *Joh_3:19; Joh_4:11; Joh_4:15; Joh_6:52; Joh_7:36, *Act_17:18, *Rom_8:7; *Rom_8:8, Eph_4:17-19; Eph_5:8, Tit_1:15.
neither can. *Pro_14:6, *Jer_6:10, Joh_1:5; *Joh_3:3; Joh_5:44; +*Joh_6:44; +*Joh_6:45; *Joh_8:43; *Joh_8:47; *Joh_14:17, Act_16:14, *Rom_8:7, **2Co_4:4-6, Col_3:3, *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:27; 1Jn_5:20, Jud_1:19, Rev_2:17; Rev_14:3.
are spiritually. T598, *Pro_25:14, *Pro_1:7; Pro_16:23; *Pro_28:5, *Ecc_8:5, Isa_8:16, *Dan_12:10, +*Joh_7:17, *2Co_4:6, Eph_5:8, Col_1:12-13, 1Th_5:4-5, 1Pe_2:9, +2Pe_3:5 (T707). *1Jn_2:8-11; *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:21, Rev_11:8 g.
discerned. 1Co_4:3-4; 1Co_9:3; 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27; 1Co_14:24, 2Sa_14:17, 1Ki_3:9, Psa_25:14, +*Pro_8:9, Mat_11:6, Luk_7:23; Luk_7:35; Luk_23:14, Act_4:9; Act_12:19; +*Act_17:11; Act_24:8; Act_25:26; Act_28:18 g.
Go through some of the references and see if we can understand the doctrine of Christ Jesus and cease from telling others of misrepresenting the Hagios D'varim of YHVH.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")
Shalom
J.
Your theory is false. You have been indoctrinated to limit God's power in accomplishing his will
Mankind is not made free to make a choice to be saved (delivered) eternally. To make such a choice would be to have the ability to choose spiritual things in which he cannot receive, and thinks them to be foolishness.
Your false theory will not harmonize the scriptures.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. The text does say "He chose US in Him..." The real question is how did God chose "us" before any of us ever existed? My answer to this question would be that our names were in the "Book of Life" for all eternity; therefore, our existence was guaranteed by God's mere decree.
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And that is precisely what happened! I can certainly relate to what you say with my own experience, as well. The "heart being changed" means we were raised from our [spiritual] tomb. We were once dead, but then became alive unto God. And only the living have any power to believe the gospel and repent of their sins.
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