I'm still looking for that verse that mentions the term "spiritually dead". Can you help me find it?
Predestination is misunderstood...
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Let's just imagine for a moment that God cannot lie and God curated the writing and assembly of the Bible. Now let's imagine that two or three people read that Bible without bringing any presuppositions to the passages they are reading, but simply use competent reading comprehension skills. Perhaps they might understand similar meanings for the same passages.
When they read -
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower that the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God might taste death for every man. For it behoved him , for whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation pefect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all od one, for which cause he is not ashamed to cll them brothers, saying, "I will declare your name to my brothers, in the midst of the church I will sing praise to you." And again, "I will put my trust in him,. And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."
Since therefore the chlldren share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage all mankind was held in bondage through the fear of death,"
before applying preconceived opinions to the text, they might instead ask questions like -
To what were they held in bondage by this fear of death?
What time in history is "that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil," referring to.
Does the devil still have the power of death?
How would Jesus' dying destroy the one holding the power of death?
Was the devil destroyed when Jesus died, or is it a longer drawn out destruction process that was initiated but is still ongoing and not yet complete? etc. etc.
They might look to answer as many of these questions as possible from evidence in other biblical texts , to which texts they would apply this same open-minded non-presupposing inductive method. And they might arrive at an understanding that answers 80% of the questions with an average of 90% certainty. The absolutely wrong approach would be to come to the text with an head full of theological presuppositions they were a priori determined to make the text comport to.
You have to be kidding....
Its only unbiblical for those who approach God from a Calvinistic world view.
I wasn't saying it so not sure why you are but ....
1Tim.2:1-4
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Hard to see how it is unbiblical to say God wants all men to be saved when the scripture says that very thing.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that those who are not saved have never been given the opportunity to respond to God.
Before you can believe in Christ you must first believe that Jesus is real.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him
must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Hebrews 11:6
One does not have to be regenerate to know He existed at the time of the Cross.
I think Adam had no idea what you will die meant to God or to Adam. There was no death to which Adam could associate the word "die."
Reading skills of translations can be a big problem.
For example.
With your reading skills?
Inform us what this following passage is telling us, please.
Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that,
denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly
in the present age.
grace and peace .............
Satan who was watching did have a concept of death and dying from the prehistoric creation.
Its what motivated Satan to tempt like he did.
Its a problem for the Calvinistic, "God's sovereignty" is our point of contact with God, who always gets what He wants.I wasn't saying it so not sure why you are but ....
1Tim.2:1-4
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Hard to see how it is unbiblical to say God wants all men to be saved when the scripture says that very thing.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that those who are not saved have never been given the opportunity to respond to God.
2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
"For". means "because". There is something Paul has already said that vv 11-12 gives the reason for him saying it. What is that? Paul has just been exhorting Christ-like behaviour, and the reason why we should practise Christ-like behaviour is now given as "because the grace of God that is bringing salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that (hina = so that), denying ungodly and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. "
The grace of God is bringing salvation to all men.
The grace of God is teaching us something.
The reason why the grace of God is teaching us is so that (hina) we might start to behave (aorist subjunctive) soberly, righteously and godly in the world.
The grace of God helps us to deny ungodly and worldly lusts, and being freed from bondage to serving these, enables us to live soberly, righteously and godly in all possible circumstances.
Questions not answered in the Tit 2:11-12 text.
How does the grace of God bring salvation? Who are referred to as "all men"? How does the grace of God teach us. How does the grace of God help us deny ungodly and worldly lusts? What keeps us in bondage to ungodly and worldly lusts?
What do the words soberly, righteously and godly mean? Soberly: with our emotions under control. Righteously: justly, honorably., blamelessly. Godly: like God in character.
2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
"For". means "because". There is something Paul has already said that vv 11-12 gives the reason for him saying it. What is that? Paul has just been exhorting Christ-like behaviour, and the reason why we should practise Christ-like behaviour is now given as "because the grace of God that is bringing salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that (hina = so that), denying ungodly and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. "
The grace of God is bringing salvation to all men.
The grace of God is teaching us something.
The reason why the grace of God is teaching us is so that (hina) we might start to behave (aorist subjunctive) soberly, righteously and godly in the world.
The grace of God helps us to deny ungodly and worldly lusts, and being freed from bondage to serving these, enables us to live soberly, righteously and godly in all possible circumstances.
Some of the many possible questions not answered in the Tit 2:11-12 text -
How does the grace of God bring salvation? Who are referred to as "all men"? How does the grace of God teach us. How does the grace of God help us deny ungodly and worldly lusts? What keeps us in bondage to ungodly and worldly lusts?
What do the words soberly, righteously and godly mean? Soberly: with our emotions under control. Righteously: justly, honorably., blamelessly. Godly: like God in character.
But he knew what a day was and he found out something about death on the very day he ate.
You said....
PaulThomson said:
Let's just imagine for a moment that God cannot lie and God curated the writing and assembly of the Bible. Now let's imagine that two or three people read that Bible without bringing any presuppositions to the passages they are reading, but simply use competent reading comprehension skills. Perhaps they might understand similar meanings for the same passages.
You missed it. That's why I picked that passage to show you that what you claimed is too limited to really know certain truths in Scripture. Truth that reading skills with English translations will never allow for.
I will answer what it is separately in another post.
grace and peace!
Read Genesis 9 to see what God put in place for Noah and his family.
As far as what God told Cain and Abel? Scripture does not tells us, but because Abel offered "by faith" and "faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God", there had to have been a Word of God heard by Abel.
While Scripture is silent on this specific point, I believe God told Adam and Eve ... Adam and Eve taught their children ... and each generation was (and still is) responsible to teach God's Word to each succeeding generation.
It's not our responsibility to make anyone believe, but it is our responsibility to teach our children (and others with whom we come into contact in our daily lives).
And God tells us in 1 Cor 1 that it pleases Him by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. That's been the instruction from time of Adam to now and on into the future.
And in reading the Abel and Cain record, look at what God said to Cain when Cain's countenance fell. God told Cain if you do well, you shall be accepted ... which leads me to believe that if Cain would have brought his offering by faith as Abel had done, God would have had respect to Cain's offering. Cain, of course, rejected God's instruction, allowed himself to be overcome, and went out and killed his brother. Cain had a choice and doubled down on his rejection of God's instruction ... he murdered his brother and he received the consequence of his choice.
On the other hand, even though Abel was a victim of Cain's rebellion, Abel received the blessing of his choice ... he obtained witness that he was righteous (Heb 11:4).
yes, people did sin and please note ... the verse does not say that there was no law in place ... the verse is referring to the law of Moses ... that is the law that was not in place between the time of Adam to Moses. The fact that men died during that time reveals that men were sinners despite the fact that the law of Moses had not yet been given. Sin under the law of Moses was not imputed; however, death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam.Cameron said:
.
He knew yom as referring to some period of time. yom has a wide range of meanings in Hebrew.
"First, one must understand that the Hebrew language is not nearly as diverse as our English language. Whereas our vocabulary is around half a million, the Hebrew language has only 8,700 words. The French language, one of the poorest modern languages in vocabulary and the language of choice for diplomats, has just about 40,000 words or over 4 times the amount of words that Ancient Hebrew has.
Many of the Hebrew words could be considered duplicates with only slight differences. Thus, words which contain multiple meanings are common. Such is the case with the word Yom.
It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time." For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.
In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." In this case, Yom is equal to "forever." How long is forever? An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years. If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis? ........
Other Uses of Yom
Day is not the only translation for the word Yom. Here are some other uses.
Time
It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time." For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.
In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." In this case, Yom is equal to "forever." How long is forever? An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years. If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?
Year
Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year." In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..." In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old." Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years." In each case, Yom represents years, not days.
Age
Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age." These range from sentences like "stricken in age," meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7). Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime. In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."
Ago
One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."
Always
Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7. Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).
Season
Three times yom is translated "season." In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period.
Chronicles
When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).
Continually
When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times). Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).
Ever
Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways." Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever." The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever. In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time. I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example. In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever." Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever. Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.
Evermore
In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore." Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.
Word Usage in the Old Testament
As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time. Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general. How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words."
https://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm
Lets take a look at this
On the “Time” you eat, you will surely die
On the “Year” you eat, you will surely die
On the “Age” you eat you will surely die
On the “ago” you eat, you will surely die
On the “always” you eat you will surely die
On the “season” you eat you will surely die
On the “chronicles” you eat you will surely die
On the “continually” you eat you will surely die
On the “Ever” you eat you will surely die
On the “evermore” you eat, you will surely die
On the “day“ you eat you will surely die
Now lets look at what makes sense grammatically.
I see that “time” Season” “year” and “day” would all fit grammatically (they make sense in the sentence as written)
We know somethign happened the “moment” he ate as we look to the text
1. Adam forgot who God was
He tried to hide from him - Forgetting God was omnipresent
He tried to blame the woman, Forgetting that God was omniscient
He acted as a person who is tryign to defend himself (fleshly as scripture calls it) and owuld not take responsibility for his own sin
We see somethign broke in Adam, Adam who had walked for God for an unknown amount of time (could have been years, no one knows, we are not told) and Knew God intimately, all of a sudden, the things of God became “foolish to him”
This is spiritual death. Which occured the day, the moment, the time adam sinned.
So any of these would fit. Not only in context. But in reality.
This is how we should use scripture to interpret scripture when we have a word that has multiple meanings.
he never blamed the women. He told the truth he said eve gave me some and I ate it
Which in God's eyes that means he told the truth
He never forgot who God was either.
He hid because the evil that he ate of the trees cursed his blood and mind and heart and spirit.
In the real world this is called Blame shifting. It is where you do not take acount of your own actions. and you put the blame on someone else.
If he knew who God was he would not have tried to Hide, because he would know he could not Hide from God.
The fact he even tried to Hide proves he forgot Who God was. Or what God could do