Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

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What is the contradiction here?
Rev 13
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Vs 8 says all on the plant worship him who are not in the book

Is God's word correct?


Do you think it is saying only those not in the book are there?

Christians will be there too. Most will be executed for not worshipping the ac and refusing his mark. However, God in His wisdom will protect and provide for some to remain alive until His return.


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Post-tribbers have the Holy Spirit too. According to the false pre-trib teaching, the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and will be removed, which means all Christians will be taken, including post-trib believers.

But according to your false pre-trib teaching there will be tribulation saints. How can they be saved without the Holy Spirit. Your false pre-trib doctrine is a mess of contradictions.


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Can't imagine the Holy Spirit being removed! Restrainer is the church
 
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Can't imagine the Holy Spirit being removed! Restrainer is the church


The Bible doesn't specifically say who it is. Pre-tribbers just assume that it's the chuch or the Holy Spiri - whatever will fit teir false pre-trib teaching.


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Can't imagine the Holy Spirit being removed! Restrainer is the church

Of course you can't imagine it, He is central to your life.

When He, the Spirit, will be removed from is the world. He will no longer restrain the enemy's behavior in the world.

The text is this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

If you look the phrase "He who now restrains" you'll find that phrase is derived from the Greek word artos, a masculine word. Hence, the use of "He" in "He who now restrains" and "He is taken".

The church in the Greek is ekklesia. Ekklesia is a feminine noun. This is consistent with the church being the "Bride of Christ".

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
 
Of course you can't imagine it, He is central to your life.

When He, the Spirit, will be removed from is the world. He will no longer restrain the enemy's behavior in the world.

The text is this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

If you look the phrase "He who now restrains" you'll find that phrase is derived from the Greek word artos, a masculine word. Hence, the use of "He" in "He who now restrains" and "He is taken".

The church in the Greek is ekklesia. Ekklesia is a feminine noun. This is consistent with the church being the "Bride of Christ".

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.


"He' could mean other male figures besides the Holy Spirit though. And the Holy Spirit will need to remain on earth to continue to save new Christians. He's not the restrainer.


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The Bible doesn't specifically say who it is. Pre-tribbers just assume that it's the chuch or the Holy Spiri - whatever will fit teir false pre-trib teaching.


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My guess is an angel. Michael, or maybe an unnamed angel.

In the book of Revelation we see angels releasing things from the abyss during the tribulation. They would be strong enough to restrain them and keep them locked up until the appointed time, and they can be taken out of the way. What do you believe the restrainer is?
 
"He' could mean other male figures besides the Holy Spirit though. And the Holy Spirit will need to remain on earth to continue to save new Christians. He's not the restrainer.


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He remains in us, who will remain in the earth.

Like God's people remained when the spirit of death made its rounds in Egypt. We ware covered by the blood and will remain safe from harm from God's work.
 
My guess is an angel. Michael, or maybe an unnamed angel.

In the book of Revelation we see angels releasing things from the abyss during the tribulation. They would be strong enough to restrain them and keep them locked up until the appointed time, and they can be taken out of the way. What do you believe the restrainer is?


Yeah, it might be Michael or another angel!

I was also considering the man who becomes the antichrist. It is said that in various verses in the Bible collectively, that he'll be possessed and empowered by Satan. So when the man is removed - taken out of the way, it is Satan instead of the man operating in his body as the final antichrist.

I think this posession of the final antichrist makes him the very worst in all history of antchrists, worse than Hitler and all the modern antichrists put together.


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Can't imagine the Holy Spirit being removed! Restrainer is the church

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

This could be the Church but not because of hypocrisy or corruption of many.

But because the world set up a system contrary to God's operation.

Not allowing the preaching of the Gospel and a personal God for 3.5 years.

Causing a falling away because they were not allowing the truth to be preached causing the transgressors to come to the full.

Falling away first, man of sin.

Transgressors come to the full, a king of fierce countenance.

So the antichrist cannot appear until the world will not allow the truth to be preached worldwide in favor of their system for 3.5 years.

Which the Church withholds the man of sin being revealed because the world allows the Church to operate.

During these 3.5 years salvation is still available to the world.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

It said until he be taken out of the way not until the Church be taken out of the way.

It is the time of salvation so the Spirit is restraining the man of sin from appearing who is Satan possessing a man.

But one day the Spirit will not restrain the man of sin but allow him to be revealed.

Which God has to end sin on earth one day.

But He will not force the world to follow the antichrist.

So He is giving the world 7 years to have their way to go against the truth.

So the man of sin has to be revealed to deceive the world that does not love the truth.

The world not allowing the truth to be preached all nations governments in compliance for 3.5 years.

Making it a hate crime saying it is not the truth and they want peace.

Causing the transgressors to come to the full causes the man of sin to be revealed.

But it is the Spirit who is restraining him from being revealed until that time which he will not restrain him from being revealed.

The Church alone not being able to operate in the world will not cause the man of sin to be revealed for that to happen is the choice of God who is restraining him until that time.

If God allowed the man of sin to be revealed now or a week ago the Church is not going to hold him back.

So it is the Spirit that restrains him and allows him to be revealed.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The devils are on a leash partially.

For the first 3.5 years the antichrist is influenced by the devil.

For the last 3.5 years the antichrist is controlled by the devil.

Which he is off his leash which is symbolic of he shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.

Satan will be put back in the bottomless pit with him being on a leash with total restraint instead of partial restraint.
 
The prophet Joel said in 2:11

for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? KJV
The day of the Lord is great and terrifying. Who can live through it? NIRV
The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it? NIV
For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; who can endure it? RSV

Apostle Peter said in Acts 2:20

the great and glorious day of the Lord. NIV
the great and notable day of the Lord come: KJV
the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. NIRV
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day. RSV

When Peter stood up and spoke on Pentecost he changed what the prophet Joel
wrote from Great and Terrible to Great and Glorious. It will be a day of misery for some and a
day of departure for others.

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs and the man of sin is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
In 2 Thess. 2 the word can be understood to be falling away, rebellion or departure.
 
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


This is something to consider when we try to identify the antichrist: he is a man with a fierce countenance.

What are the other things in the Bible we should look out for?


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This is something to consider when we try to identify the antichrist: he is a man with a fierce countenance.

What are the other things in the Bible we should look out for?


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Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

He will have the eyes of man which his agenda is it is all about people and there is no God.

And he will push that agenda.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Stout
rab
(Chaldee); corresponding to H7227: - captain, chief, great, lord, master, stout.

He will be more adamant and determined to be in position of power and does not waiver more than those in league with him.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand.

He will be fierce in his agenda and pushy and dominant.

He will understand dark sentences speaking like no man they ever heard before mesmerizing them.

Joh 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

The officers were afraid to take Jesus because of the way He spoke.

Which Jesus spoke to people like no person they ever heard but on the side of good.

The antichrist will speak like no person that people ever heard before but on the side of evil.

He will cause craft to prosper in his hand.

Craft.
mirmâh
meer-maw'
From H7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: - craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He will claim to be God the most exalted human to ever exist.

He will exalt himself above every god and above all people.

He will be of the occult.

He will not have the desire of women because his only agenda is to be trained in the occult being focused and ruling the world.

He will become the biggest player on the world scene for 3.5 years pushing his agenda.

And then claim to be God.

For the 3.5 years before he claims to be God it will be easy to identify the man of sin working in the world by his behavior, popularity, not caring about family life, and the beliefs he has of no God, people will evolve to be spiritual, the occult, and talking like no person they heard before, and the stern strict aggression he has.

He will stick out like a sore thumb.

For sure he has people going along with his agenda and beliefs.

But he is the man of sin influenced by Satan so his determination will be higher and more dominant to push that agenda.

He will be all over the place, busy as can be to influence, and persuade, with great determination.

For the influence of Satan will cause him to be like that but with that comes great arrogance of a high level to be the greatest ever and rule the world.

Not afraid to push it, not afraid of failing believing for sure he will exceed.

For Satan is tweaking his mind to be like that.

And these things are trapped in his mind with no other reality or choice and no escape.

No second guessing, no doubt, no remorse for he believes it has to be done, no other way, the will of nature.

He will be the worse human being in history being controlled by Satan to deceive and destroy.

Which by peace he will destroy many convincing the world it is the only way to have peace.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

His religion is all religions are of the occult and the same.

Which he will push a false interpretation of the Bible that exalts people and there is no God.

Which will be the time people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible.

For they stopped the preaching of the truth and only the false interpretation is allowed becoming popular and they are giving heed to the antichrist and his reality.

The reason the antichrist is shown in Daniel is because it has to do with the end time.
 
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Zech14:16

16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.

How about these unrighteous folks?
Depends on whether they take the mark of the Beast or not. Per Rev. 16, God's wrath specifically targets the bearers of that mark, this is repeated multiple times for emphesis.
 
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If you are living in the Tribulation there will be plenty of suffering going on. Entirely true if one takes the Mark of the beast their fate is sealed. I do not plan to be living in the Day of the Lord. Tribulation is not for the church age saints.
 
Depends on whether they take the mark of the Beast or not. Per Rev. 16, God's wrath specifically targets the bearers of that mark, this is repeated multiple times for emphesis.


I think children who haven't reached the age of accountability will still be free of the mark since they have no ability to make that decision on their own, plus they don't work and earn money anyway.

They'll be the unrighteous going into the millennial age. So that means we continue to share the gospel in the next age to them.


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Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

He will have the eyes of man which his agenda is it is all about people and there is no God.

And he will push that agenda.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Stout
rab
(Chaldee); corresponding to H7227: - captain, chief, great, lord, master, stout.

He will be more adamant and determined to be in position of power and does not waiver more than those in league with him.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand.

He will be fierce in his agenda and pushy and dominant.

He will understand dark sentences speaking like no man they ever heard before mesmerizing them.

Joh 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

The officers were afraid to take Jesus because of the way He spoke.

Which Jesus spoke to people like no person they ever heard but on the side of good.

The antichrist will speak like no person that people ever heard before but on the side of evil.

He will cause craft to prosper in his hand.

Craft.
mirmâh
meer-maw'
From H7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: - craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He will claim to be God the most exalted human to ever exist.

He will exalt himself above every god and above all people.

He will be of the occult.

He will not have the desire of women because his only agenda is to be trained in the occult being focused and ruling the world.

He will become the biggest player on the world scene for 3.5 years pushing his agenda.

And then claim to be God.

For the 3.5 years before he claims to be God it will be easy to identify the man of sin working in the world by his behavior, popularity, not caring about family life, and the beliefs he has of no God, people will evolve to be spiritual, the occult, and talking like no person they heard before, and the stern strict aggression he has.

He will stick out like a sore thumb.

For sure he has people going along with his agenda and beliefs.

But he is the man of sin influenced by Satan so his determination will be higher and more dominant to push that agenda.

He will be all over the place, busy as can be to influence, and persuade, with great determination.

For the influence of Satan will cause him to be like that but with that comes great arrogance of a high level to be the greatest ever and rule the world.

Not afraid to push it, not afraid of failing believing for sure he will exceed.

For Satan is tweaking his mind to be like that.

And these things are trapped in his mind with no other reality or choice and no escape.

No second guessing, no doubt, no remorse for he believes it has to be done, no other way, the will of nature.

He will be the worse human being in history being controlled by Satan to deceive and destroy.

Which by peace he will destroy many convincing the world it is the only way to have peace.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

His religion is all religions are of the occult and the same.

Which he will push a false interpretation of the Bible that exalts people and there is no God.

Which will be the time people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible.

For they stopped the preaching of the truth and only the false interpretation is allowed becoming popular and they are giving heed to the antichrist and his reality.

The reason the antichrist is shown in Daniel is because it has to do with the end time.

Thank you for outlining what to look for!

You pointed out that he will be stout, meaning he will already have a leadership position, so we shouldn’t look among those just starting out. I say this because there is school in the EU that trains young politicians for leadership.

You also said that he will be fierce in pushing his agenda, and that could be a better interpretation than just having a fierce appearance. I wonder if the fierce appearance applies too.

Hitler was very fierce about pushing his agenda, but he was fierce in appearance too.

I still have to study the rest of what you wrote, and I'll post more of what I learned from the verses you've gathered.

Thanks again!


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I think children who haven't reached the age of accountability will still be free of the mark since they have no ability to make that decision on their own, plus they don't work and earn money anyway.

They'll be the unrighteous going into the millennial age. So that means we continue to share the gospel in the next age to them.


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Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom age will know the Lord! While 1/3 of the surviving jews enter the Kingdom, the unrighteous gentile sheep will enter the Kingdom
 
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Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom age will know the Lord! While 1/3 of the surviving jews enter the Kingdom, the unrighteous gentile sheep will enter the Kingdom

But Satan is bound for that time. Yes normal humans will have to accept salvation just like everybody else had to. And the Saints will have resurrection bodies like Jesus had after He was raised. That should be an interesting time on earth.

1000 years and normal humans will breed like rabbits and with no abortions possible. The population will soar!
 
Post-tribbers have the Holy Spirit too. According to the false pre-trib teaching, the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and will be removed, which means all Christians will be taken, including post-trib believers.

But according to your false pre-trib teaching there will be tribulation saints. How can they be saved without the Holy Spirit. Your false pre-trib doctrine is a mess of contradictions.


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I don't believe anything you are saying I do.
According to the bible half are left behind.
According to Jesus only the worthy ones are taken.
So tell Jesus what he needs to do with all that....or start reading your bible and not the part postribbers feed you.

Search postrib "teaching".
Note that they OMIT the bride and groom, the 2 escape verses, rev 14:14, and Noah gathered preflood, and Lot gathered prejudgement.

Also note that they NEVER put into context the SETTING OF THE RAPTURE.

Note what they do with mat 25. The virgin parable.
Note that the COMPONENTS of the parable are CHANGED BY EVERY SINGLE POSTRIBBER.

Your doctrine fails so miserably .
 
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Yes? Most of those will be Christians,

If you recaĺl, the dead rise first at the rapture, and then those who are alive and remain.

We'll be back. Death has no hold on us.


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You just pointed out that no alive believers are left at the second coming on white horses.

Postrib rapture impossibilities are numerous.