Gnostics and cultists like people with weak minds because they are easy to deceive and control
"Prayer" How did we get here?
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Gnostics and cultists like people with weak minds because they are easy to deceive and control
That's what I'm asking in this thread. Show me where in His word they prayed audibly.
Maybe we after 2000 years have just wondered away from Jn. 6:5-6.what He taught here works very well in this time period.
The full circle of speaking in another tongue is that someone else hears it and interprets it. That different than what Jesus is teaching in Jn. 6-5:6.
But Paul writes of others being able to say "Amen" at the end of somebody's prayer. If they couldn't do that if it was spoken in an unknown language, how could they do it if they couldn't hear the prayer at all?
I already have done:
“For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.” (1Co 14:14-17 NKJV)
Speak from the Heart
The heart reveals the truth, just as a tree is identified by its fruit
Frist birth of man is only born to know good and evil. then to choose what that person believes as good or evil. What a mess.
I, see ask God Ezekiel 36:26, receive the new Heart from God in love mercy and care for all, not just those you think are good, when no one is good but God Father in risen Son for us all to decide to believe God did it all for us. To be new in God Father's Spirit and Truth inn love and mercy to all too
What???????????????? how can I love those that did me wrong? God does, through Son. Did Son ever fight back on his way to that crucifixion? So, why did he go there willingly?
To save us, you think? First he had to take away sin, did he do that on that cross in willing death for us all first or not?
He did it once for all, that is done per John 19:30 read the whole chapter please see John 1:29 what John said about Jesus, who, he saw coming to him to be water baptized by him?
John at first said to Jesus he was not worthy to Water Baptize Jesus. Jesus said to John I must do all that is right.
So John Baptized Jesus. Water Baptism is done by Jesus unto Spirit Baptism today, presently for us to receive God Father in Spirit and Truth to love with mercy as is done by Son first.
God speaks, God spoke and at Pentecost, God spoke through the disciples and they heard God through the disciples speak in thier languages. Then those that believed God spoke back to the disciples in their language, which confirmed salvation from God only working it out through them.
Thanks
I think the explanation is in the last half of the verse you highlighted.
It says,
how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say ? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.” (1Co 14:14-17 NKJV)[/QUOTE]
The word "pray" does mean always prayer to God, so thats a point against Mt. 6:5-6, and the Greek word for "tongue" does mean to speak in a different language, another point that doesn't fit with Mt. 6:5-6.
BUT, the phrase, "since he doesn't understand what you say," that puts it back in line with praying in secret. And this person is not edified,( meaning constructive, not built up )
Also, they are talking about praying in another language, and in the "spirit". ( used 3 times ) which means in the invisible realm.
So I acknowledge you've made some good finds here, but its not enough to say Mt. 6:5-6 isn't a solid teaching that means exactly what it says, in your closet, in secret. And when tongues are introduced into the passage we need to look at the words to find exact context, because when Jesus uttered Mt.6:5-6, the word tongues isn't used.
If people walking by were minding their own business but some how alarmed to what was happening in the Upper Room, a place they wouldn't be able to physically see inside a home, but only could HEAR the commotion going on then this was clearly a Prayer by all audibly.
That's how Paul wrote it to explain or give a Title to it but he explains in detail it's done via the Spirit of God.
Stephen prayed to God out loud as he was being stoned (Acts 7:59-60). Did he sin by doing that?
The speaking in tongues actually happened at the temple, which was filled with people. And the crowd was amazed at what they heard.
Praying, fasting, and giving Gods way is to be done in secret.
Praying in secret: Mt. 6:5-6
Fasting in secret: Mt. 6:16-18
Giving in secret: Mt. 6:1-4
Praying and fasting are the easiest of the 3 to fulfil in secret. Giving on the other hand, it takes thought and effort to fulfil giving in secret, think about it. When we give, taking a tax deduction , that's not in secret. Giving to the church, tithes and such. Are we giving infront of others? are we giving by check in sight of a secretary? Is someone monitoring our tithes and offerings? If so, that's not done in secret.
There's laws in the spiritual realm just as important as laws in the carnal realm. Jesus taught about this law of the spiritual realm. If anyone hears us praying, knows we are fasting, sees us giving, it's worth nothing in the spiritual realm. This understanding is an inevitable accompaniment of a life of faith and faithing, a life of a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
The focus of this thread is to rediscover how Jesus taught us to pray , fast , and give.
Thanks for your replies.
Praying in secret: Mt. 6:5-6
Fasting in secret: Mt. 6:16-18
Giving in secret: Mt. 6:1-4
Praying and fasting are the easiest of the 3 to fulfil in secret. Giving on the other hand, it takes thought and effort to fulfil giving in secret, think about it. When we give, taking a tax deduction , that's not in secret. Giving to the church, tithes and such. Are we giving infront of others? are we giving by check in sight of a secretary? Is someone monitoring our tithes and offerings? If so, that's not done in secret.
There's laws in the spiritual realm just as important as laws in the carnal realm. Jesus taught about this law of the spiritual realm. If anyone hears us praying, knows we are fasting, sees us giving, it's worth nothing in the spiritual realm. This understanding is an inevitable accompaniment of a life of faith and faithing, a life of a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
The focus of this thread is to rediscover how Jesus taught us to pray , fast , and give.
Thanks for your replies.
The key word there is epikaleomai , means to "call upon". the words in the Greek for prayer were not used here. Kind of like when Paul called upon Caesar
And nobody said praying in front of others was a sin. so please be careful about doing that.
While that is technically true, you're injecting a meaning that is irrelevant in order to dodge the clear implication of the passage cited. This entire thread is about prayer to God.
Yes... and 1 Corinthians 14:2 clearly says, "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God".
Invisible does not mean inaudible. The clear implication is that prayer in a language known to the hearer legitimately results in the hearer saying "Amen".
One does not normally affirm with an "Amen" a prayer which is spoken inaudibly; to do so is to open oneself to agreeing with error.
The core problem is that you're trying to make a doctrine out of a single passage. That's never wise, and you have ignored both the context and the implication of your primary passage. Jesus was criticizing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, identifying their motivation for praying aloud and in public. Jesus does not criticize public prayer specifically, nor prayer spoken aloud specifically.
It is in secret, because only the person(s) tabulating know(s) who gives what, and anyone who doesn't treat that as highly confidential information is not qualified for the task. Does it mean only God knows? No, but it also means that any accolade or admiration that one might gain by giving publicly (which is what Jesus was criticizing) is not available.
Nowhere in Scripture is this idea presented as a "law".
That is not in Scripture anywhere. It's ridiculously inconsistent with much of the relevant Scripture.
Is that really enough evidence for you to say Jesus really didn't mean what He said in Mt.6:5-6.
Remember the number one rule of interpreting scripture. Don't take an unknown, uncertain scripture and use it to knock down a mountain of scripture we are certain of.