Poll about how you see predestination/freewill
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You said: It does not state raise up to eternal life, nor have you specified what Jesus meant when He stated last day. - this in response to John 6:44. The only reason one would be questioning the obvious meaning of this verse, is because one does not want it to mean what it says. The best way to determine what the writer means by the use of "raise up" and "last day", is to look and see how these are used throughout the book of John. Here are the verses:
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Bible defining the Bible. In these three verses, there can be no doubt that "raise up" is referring to the resurrection and "last day" is the resurrection day. Verse 40 makes it clear that this is to eternal life. However, if there is still any doubt, then look at this conversation, please:
John 11:23-26 Jesus says unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24) Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; (26) and whosoever living and believing on me shall never die. Do you believe this?
So based on the context of John 6:39 and 40, the proper understanding of John 6:44, is the resurrection at the last day. This is to eternal life.
You then said: Why did Jesus say to all His disciples in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” when Judas was still one of that group? Judas has been chosen, ordained, to bring forth fruit, yet he doesn’t. Your question seems to pertain to Judas. If he was chosen and appointed to bring forth fruit, what went wrong? In the case of Judas - nothing went wrong. Judas carried out the role he was chosen and called to do. Scripture says the following about Judas:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. (Here our Lord is revealing that Judas was chosen to fulfill OT prophecy. In particular Psalm 41:9)
Judas had a particular role to fulfill. If he did not, then the prophecies from the Old Testament would not have come to pass and God would be a liar. Most would never accuse God of being a liar. We know who the father of all lies is. Just because Judas hung out with Jesus and the other disciples, does not mean that he was saved. There was never evidence that Judas believed Jesus to be God.
Finally, you stated the following: If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?
The reason why "many" can be CALLED but "few" are CHOSEN can be explained in this way: First - let me say that this verse, Matthew 22:14, is the closing sentence of a "parable" that our Lord was telling. Believers should be careful about using a parable for doctrinal understanding. Nevertheless, the reason why the numbers are not the same is because "called" and "chosen are not the same thing. In the case of verse 14, called is referring to the General call of the Gospel message. Many may hear this and respond for a short season but without Regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is no staying power. Their faith was never genuine. However, the ones chosen to adoption as sons, are Regenerated at the appropriate time and then Effectually called by the Gospel message. One who is effectually called, will incur the full effect of the Gospel and it's lasting impact on their lives. Also, in proper Biblical sequence, called never proceeds chosen, when referring to genuine salvation. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Bible defining the Bible. In these three verses, there can be no doubt that "raise up" is referring to the resurrection and "last day" is the resurrection day. Verse 40 makes it clear that this is to eternal life. However, if there is still any doubt, then look at this conversation, please:
John 11:23-26 Jesus says unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24) Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; (26) and whosoever living and believing on me shall never die. Do you believe this?
So based on the context of John 6:39 and 40, the proper understanding of John 6:44, is the resurrection at the last day. This is to eternal life.
You then said: Why did Jesus say to all His disciples in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” when Judas was still one of that group? Judas has been chosen, ordained, to bring forth fruit, yet he doesn’t. Your question seems to pertain to Judas. If he was chosen and appointed to bring forth fruit, what went wrong? In the case of Judas - nothing went wrong. Judas carried out the role he was chosen and called to do. Scripture says the following about Judas:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. (Here our Lord is revealing that Judas was chosen to fulfill OT prophecy. In particular Psalm 41:9)
Judas had a particular role to fulfill. If he did not, then the prophecies from the Old Testament would not have come to pass and God would be a liar. Most would never accuse God of being a liar. We know who the father of all lies is. Just because Judas hung out with Jesus and the other disciples, does not mean that he was saved. There was never evidence that Judas believed Jesus to be God.
Finally, you stated the following: If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?
The reason why "many" can be CALLED but "few" are CHOSEN can be explained in this way: First - let me say that this verse, Matthew 22:14, is the closing sentence of a "parable" that our Lord was telling. Believers should be careful about using a parable for doctrinal understanding. Nevertheless, the reason why the numbers are not the same is because "called" and "chosen are not the same thing. In the case of verse 14, called is referring to the General call of the Gospel message. Many may hear this and respond for a short season but without Regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is no staying power. Their faith was never genuine. However, the ones chosen to adoption as sons, are Regenerated at the appropriate time and then Effectually called by the Gospel message. One who is effectually called, will incur the full effect of the Gospel and it's lasting impact on their lives. Also, in proper Biblical sequence, called never proceeds chosen, when referring to genuine salvation. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Yes, God expects us to obey.
What God expects and what He desires is a distinction without a difference.
No, the Bible states few will be saved but many will try.
Luke 13:23-24
Someone said to Jesus, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?”
Jesus said, “Try hard to enter through the narrow door, because many people will try to enter there, but they will not be able.
What God expects and what He desires is a distinction without a difference.
No, the Bible states few will be saved but many will try.
Luke 13:23-24
Someone said to Jesus, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?”
Jesus said, “Try hard to enter through the narrow door, because many people will try to enter there, but they will not be able.
Just to let you know I am quite busy at work, but I did want to ask what you think of this Scriptural truth:
Romans 11 verse 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.
Romans 11 verse 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.
BTW, some use this verse as evidence of eventual universal salvation and if left in a vacuum it would but no verse should be seen in such a way. IOW, no verse should be seen as all-encompassing and trumping the rest of scripture.
We are born into a lost state as a result of Adam's choice. Praise the Lord if Jesus has set you free that you may choose Him and love God. Some believe it is merciful to put a suffering creature out of its misery. That does not speak to universalism. It's almost amazing how many verses can be taken to mean whatever you want them to ... like when it says the whole world is under the power and influence of the evil one, and, some are taken captive to the will of the devil ... people interpret that as meaning man's will is free... pretty amazing, huh?
I haven't read the whole topic here. So it may be that someone else has already posted my assessment.
Isn't it simply the case that man has free will, but since God is almighty and also exists “outside” our understanding of time (time is also part of his creation), he already knows how everything will turn out? And because he knows this, it is in fact the case that everything is “predetermined” to a certain extent. Not in the sense that he eliminates free will, but because he already knew the outcome of each individual event before the world even existed.
That may sound a bit complicated. You have to get used to thinking in four dimensions, as Doc Brown would say.
Isn't it simply the case that man has free will, but since God is almighty and also exists “outside” our understanding of time (time is also part of his creation), he already knows how everything will turn out? And because he knows this, it is in fact the case that everything is “predetermined” to a certain extent. Not in the sense that he eliminates free will, but because he already knew the outcome of each individual event before the world even existed.
That may sound a bit complicated. You have to get used to thinking in four dimensions, as Doc Brown would say.
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I agree fallen man is all of those things.
But this is is the state of man without God.
Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
We are slaves to sin but with the power of God we can be set free.
This does not mean we have no choice.
Or have no free will.
Without Christ I will fall into sin but with Christ I can choose to follow the Spirit.
I choose, it is my free choice, but the power comes from faith in Jesus.
Jesus wants us all to follow Him and do good. He wants us all to overcome sin but we need to choose it.
Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
Did the people have free will???
Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Two different spirts, one had faith in God, the other doubted God's ability.
God did not force them to have faith or not have faith. It was a free choice.
With faith comes power.
Num 14:22-24
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
By faith we can overcome. We are not forced to have Faith.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;....but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
But this is is the state of man without God.
Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
We are slaves to sin but with the power of God we can be set free.
This does not mean we have no choice.
Or have no free will.
Without Christ I will fall into sin but with Christ I can choose to follow the Spirit.
I choose, it is my free choice, but the power comes from faith in Jesus.
Jesus wants us all to follow Him and do good. He wants us all to overcome sin but we need to choose it.
Num 13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
Did the people have free will???
Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Two different spirts, one had faith in God, the other doubted God's ability.
God did not force them to have faith or not have faith. It was a free choice.
With faith comes power.
Num 14:22-24
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
By faith we can overcome. We are not forced to have Faith.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;....but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Do you think what God said priorly has anything to do with “pre destination “?
what he says becomes the shape of the future like this
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”
Exodus 19:5-6 KJV
If they will obey his word and keep his covenant then they will be….
do you see how the condition for thier behavior is Baked into it ?
When we are talking about things God has determined will happen later it’s inperitove we hear what it was he said
“If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.”
Leviticus 26:3-7, 9, 11-13 KJV
thats thier destiny if they obey his covenant it is ordained by his word
But this also was ordained and would be by the same Gods word based again on thier repainse
“But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; and if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
Leviticus 26:14-18, 21-22, 25, 29-33
You can see my point thier destiny was decided by his word and the conditions in his covenant two possibilities were there and one would be fulfilled based on how they responded to him
Thier destiny is here
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:15-19 KJV
He doesn’t change there’s always our choice we have to choose who to serve and that will determine our end based upon what he said that’s predestination whatever God said will happen and how it will happen this for instance is pre determined for everyone
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
once we hear and believe that we’ll suddenly realize the importance of choices and consequences which the lord has taught since the beginning telling us beforhand what he’s doing and what will be
what he says becomes the shape of the future like this
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”
Exodus 19:5-6 KJV
If they will obey his word and keep his covenant then they will be….
do you see how the condition for thier behavior is Baked into it ?
When we are talking about things God has determined will happen later it’s inperitove we hear what it was he said
“If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.”
Leviticus 26:3-7, 9, 11-13 KJV
thats thier destiny if they obey his covenant it is ordained by his word
But this also was ordained and would be by the same Gods word based again on thier repainse
“But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; and if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
Leviticus 26:14-18, 21-22, 25, 29-33
You can see my point thier destiny was decided by his word and the conditions in his covenant two possibilities were there and one would be fulfilled based on how they responded to him
Thier destiny is here
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
Deuteronomy 30:15-19 KJV
He doesn’t change there’s always our choice we have to choose who to serve and that will determine our end based upon what he said that’s predestination whatever God said will happen and how it will happen this for instance is pre determined for everyone
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
once we hear and believe that we’ll suddenly realize the importance of choices and consequences which the lord has taught since the beginning telling us beforhand what he’s doing and what will be
I believe it's both, we have an emotional nature and logical nature that leads us places.
The point of feelings is to reward and punish behaviour. It's hard to escape the fact they've been with us for life, and been changing our behaviour the whole way. It's not that we can't choose, it's that we won't use our free will if we feel justified, if we feel like what we're doing is right.
The logical side more or less determines how we plan things, and not what we want or need. It can however modify us to make more sane choices.
The point of feelings is to reward and punish behaviour. It's hard to escape the fact they've been with us for life, and been changing our behaviour the whole way. It's not that we can't choose, it's that we won't use our free will if we feel justified, if we feel like what we're doing is right.
The logical side more or less determines how we plan things, and not what we want or need. It can however modify us to make more sane choices.
