Poll about how you see predestination/freewill

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Which one do you mostly subscribe to:

  • Arminianism

  • Calvinism

  • Molinism

  • Open theism


Results are only viewable after voting.

Lamar

Well-known member
May 21, 2023
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Pelagians reject the idea that Adam's fall caused a corruption of human nature. They believe
that each individual is born with the ability to choose between good and evil, and that sin is a purely voluntary act.
"If you do good, will you not be lifted up? If you do not do good, sin is crouching at the door. It has a strong desire for you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

Is this not what God expects from us?
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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Does it state ... No man is able to "be given the gift of eternal life" except the Father which sent me draw him?

No it does not.
I am always amazed and dumbfounded at times, how people can take such a simple word from our Lord and not get the meaning of what is said.

What I posted from John is not complicated English sentence construction. Words mean what they mean. There is no need for some kind of interpretation. Just except what the Lord said:
John 6:44 No man is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man is able to come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


The Lord said in 6:44, "No man is able to come to me, except..." This is how He started the sentence. He finished with: "I will raise him up in the last day." So obviously, eternal Salvation is the context. In the middle of this sentence, the Lord said the Father was the one who made the exception possible. The Father, through His Eternal Plan, makes believers able to believe.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,651
491
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Mankind does not need to be given anything to surrender to God. As creatures we naturally have something to give God and that is the surrender of ourselves. All must bow and submit our rebel souls to God.
I agree with you here. God does demand that His creatures love, worship, praise and give thanks to Him. However, I strongly disagree that the "natural man" can do these things. If man could, then God would have not had to devise a plan for Salvation. Additionally, this flies in the face of what Holy Scripture says about the natural man.

Rom 3:9b ..for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that are seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that does good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

1Co 2:13, 14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?

These are just a few of the Holy Words about the natural state of fallen man.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,041
3,362
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I am always amazed and dumbfounded at times, how people can take such a simple word from our Lord and not get the meaning of what is said.

What I posted from John is not complicated English sentence construction. Words mean what they mean. There is no need for some kind of interpretation. Just except what the Lord said:
John 6:44 No man is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man is able to come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


The Lord said in 6:44, "No man is able to come to me, except..." This is how He started the sentence. He finished with: "I will raise him up in the last day." So obviously, eternal Salvation is the context. In the middle of this sentence, the Lord said the Father was the one who made the exception possible. The Father, through His Eternal Plan, makes believers able to believe.
As usual you use eisegesis... which has no rules!

It does not state raise up to eternal life, nor have you specified what Jesus meant when He stated last day.

He is drawing them to service and purpose.

Why did Jesus say to all His disciples in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” when Judas was still one of that group? Judas has been chosen, ordained, to bring forth fruit, yet he doesn’t.

John 12:32 – And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. Same writer (John), same word (draw).

If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?

More eisegiesis incoming...
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,142
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If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?

More eisegiesis incoming...
because many hear the gospel but only few are chosen to remain in the wedding. those who have the righteousness of Christ
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,041
3,362
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because many hear the gospel but only few are chosen to remain in the wedding. those who have the righteousness of Christ
Until one has their eschatology in line with scripture these verses are very difficult to understand.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,041
3,362
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"If you do good, will you not be lifted up? If you do not do good, sin is crouching at the door. It has a strong desire for you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

Is this not what God expects from us?
Amen and Amen. (y)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
33,006
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because many hear the gospel but only few are chosen to remain in the wedding. those who have the righteousness of Christ
Many don't hear, the gospel is not comprehensible, it is foolishness to the natural man... but we have those here saying everyone hears and the natural man can and will choose to believe that which he can neither receive nor comprehend with his incurably wicked heart which is under the power and influence of Satan, incapable of obeying God with Whom he is hostile in his mind towards, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and refusing to come into the light because his deeds are evil. So many Scripture truths are routinely ignored, contradicted, and outright denied by the promoters of free will. And they have zero verses to back up what they believe, just their opinions, eisegiesis, vain philosophy, and the traditions of self-exalting man.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
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113
this has nothing to do with the destruction of jerusalem. what is this?
I wonder why they say it's difficult to understand that the proper garments at the wedding feast is to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ... Since man has no righteousness of his own... although to hear some speak people speak, you would think he did.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
33,006
113
what is it about in your opinion

Psalm 102 verses 25-26, Isaiah 65 verse 17, Revelation 21 verse 5a, Isaiah 43 verse 18 ~ In the beginning You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing You will change them, and they will be passed on. For I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Do not call to mind the former things; pay no attention to the things of old.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
33,006
113
I agree with you here. God does demand that His creatures love, worship, praise and give thanks to Him. However, I strongly disagree that the "natural man" can do these things. If man could, then God would have not had to devise a plan for Salvation. Additionally, this flies in the face of what Holy Scripture says about the natural man.

Rom 3:9b ..for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that are seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that does good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

1Co 2:13, 14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?

These are just a few of the Holy Words about the natural state of fallen man.

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
33,006
113
"If you do good, will you not be lifted up? If you do not do good, sin is crouching at the door.
It has a strong desire for you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

Is this not what God expects from us?
God knew Adam would disobey. Does that mean He expected it?

Do you make a distinction between what He might expect and what He desires and how it all plays out?

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world... and God desires all will be saved. Will they be?


You have not answered a number of my questions. Still, I hope you come to know, as Scriptures affirms we can, but you deny.


Romans 8:15-16 You did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,802
33,006
113
"If you do good, will you not be lifted up? If you do not do good, sin is crouching at the door. It has a strong desire for you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

Is this not what God expects from us?
Just to let you know I am quite busy at work, but I did want to ask what you think of this Scriptural truth:


Romans 11 verse 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.